The Bible and Love and Christians

[frogboy4]

Heh, I actually hadn't really thought about that before! Again, it's incredible how people were making these connections as early as the first century!



Actually I wondered about this too and this is what I found:



That does explain why my school was allowed to teach evolution. Plus, my father says he was taught evolution in Catholic school even in the 1960's! Technically the Church never really outlawed it.

That recent revelation is very interesting! Could it be that it's mainly American religious culture that has such a problem with evolution these days.

 

[CensoredAlso]

That recent revelation is very interesting! Could it be that it's mainly American religious culture that has such a problem with evolution these days.

Yeah I'm very much relieved right now, lol. Well I think America is much more invested in religion than say Europe in general is nowadays. But the thing is American religious culture tends to lean more conservative. The Evangelical movement is very active and definitely accounts for some of the more extreme conservative vibes of religion. There are progressive elements of American Christianity, but it's like how progressives in general tend to be concentrated in San Francisco or New York City, rather than the whole country.

I actually think a lot of Catholics simply don't know the Vatican's position on issues. I definitely don't. Certainly there's a distance problem; the Vatican is really far away and most of us have never seen it before, lol.

I do want to say though, I don't live and breath by the Vatican if they make a judgment I disagree with (which they have). After all, Jesus discredited the authority of his religious leaders all the time. Rebellion against authority should be a Christian quality in some cases, but sadly we've gotten away from that.

In fact I'm going to go watch Jesus Christ Superstar right now, lol!

 

[RedPiggy]

If the scripture is a road map and that map is incomplete or flawed then I think there's a big problem. Christians can decide to overlook that, but I can't. I used find myself making all sorts of rationalizations for Biblical inconsistencies. It makes sense to some people and I can respect that, but it never really did for me.

I don't see it as "perfect" either. In fact, it's why I don't consider it a Word OF God. Rather, I see it as a Word ABOUT God. However, over the centuries, all those editors had a chance to "fix" the problems, but they clearly didn't. Call it a rationalization, but it appears to be an attempt to admit that life is complex and everything isn't neat and tidy and black and white, despite the fact a lot of people want to see it that way, including various biblical authors. As I understand the Quran, for example, its prophets/heroes aren't allowed to have major issues. From speaking to Muslims on religious debate boards, the idea seems to be that flawed heroes wouldn't be valuable role models. While I disagree with "whitewashing" the stories, I can respect the concept behind it. It's just I like the bible's "dude, these people are MESSED ... UP" attitude. I like flawed heroes who must win despite their flaws rather than read about perfect people. And let's face it ... Plato is highly responsible for our modern sense of "perfection". After reading about science, philosophy, and religion, what seems to be rather clear is that "perfection" in Reality doesn't really mean what we THINK it SHOULD mean. In reality, DNA has "junk" in it. In reality, we have vestigial organs. In reality, supernovas and asteroids and solar flares are hazards to this planet. In reality, people who live on faults, near volcanoes, or near coasts are going to have bad days. I consider the bible, therefore, perfect and imperfect, depending on how you look at it.

About the only thing the Star Wars prequels got right: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

The only issue I have with that is that the line is shoehorned into the main story, as Lucas seems to forget he's had the JEDI moaning about good-vs-evil the whole time, whereas the Sith has been spouting off whatever story will get a listener. It was the JEDI who treated Anakin like a black and white issue. It was PALPATINE who offered the idea that morality was relative. Obi-Wan's line is just a throw-away, last-ditch attempt to dig at fundies, despite the fact the story has been the exact opposite the ENTIRE time. Anakin had to turn to the Sith because the Jedi were so stuck on their own self-righteousness they couldn't even accept and welcome their OWN "chosen one".

Some Christians are more thoughtful, but I know that the main denominations, including Catholicism, aren't supposed to believe in a buffet Bible either.

Well, my irritation is that lots of people say that, but upon further theological discussion, you realize they ALL do it.

Heh, I actually hadn't really thought about that before! Again, it's incredible how people were making these connections as early as the first century!

I'm too lazy to look up the timing of it, but certainly by the time the bible is starting to take written form, the ancient Greeks and perhaps others have already started musing about what became "evolutionary theory" later on.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I don't see it as "perfect" either. In fact, it's why I don't consider it a Word OF God.

I still take issue with the idea that God would want his word to seem "perfect."

the idea seems to be that flawed heroes wouldn't be valuable role models.

Heck, we have that in our own popular culture don't we? Hollywood is terrified to give their heroes real flaws. They'll claim to of course, but their attempts are usually pretty pathetic. Older Hollywood movies actually had a lot more guts about portraying imperfect heroes.

The only issue I have with that is that the line is shoehorned into the main story, as Lucas seems to forget he's had the JEDI moaning about good-vs-evil the whole time

Well let's face it, it's a poorly written movie all around, lol.

 

[Drtooth]

That recent revelation is very interesting! Could it be that it's mainly American religious culture that has such a problem with evolution these days.

I can't see why evolution SHOULDN'T be compatible with religion. Sure, every religion has a creation story, but that's something that was passed down over centuries. Now, I can't say I believe there's a specific creator God type god... but what do humans really know about anything? I feel if there is a divine force out there, it's so marvelous and expansive that we couldn't even begin to comprehend it. We could spend all of humanity trying to, but in the end, we'd never be able to figure it out.

That said, religious figures are also historical figures. To not believe in Jesus is basically saying like I don't believe in Abe Lincoln. Same with all the others. There's nothing wrong with studying all different options philosophically. I don't believe in absolute one true anything. Truth always lies in between.

I agree... absolute anything lacks balance. Balance is needed to get things to work properly, but no one wants to consider the option as they might have to... gasp... compromise! When did that become such a dirty word? We learn about cooperation on Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers, and basically everything... then we grow up to see no one else is doing it.

 

[RedPiggy]

That said, religious figures are also historical figures. To not believe in Jesus is basically saying like I don't believe in Abe Lincoln.

Well, the hard part is determining JUST how "historical" they are. There are the heavily documented historical figures, such as the politicians (kings, emperors, etc), with documentation not just in sacred scriptures but also on legal documents throughout the relevant territories. There are the magicians/scientists/philosophers who more likely than not existed. They might have their issues, though. While I have no reason not to believe Heracles and Asclepius (sp?) existed, I certainly feel their later deification to be taking "honoring the famous" into "hero worship". While our country might be too secular for most people to literally engage in that, we DO celebrate politicians, athletes, movie stars, etc way more than they should really get. And of course, you get the mentally off people who DO form unnatural attachments to celebrities. While I believe Jesus to be historical, I feel, based on the documents on hand, that a lot of the deification issues are from people like John (or whoever authored in his name), who went way over the fanboy syndrome. As you said, I am willing to be the truth is somewhere in between.

When did that become such a dirty word? We learn about cooperation on Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers, and basically everything... then we grow up to see no one else is doing it.

I admit a lot of any cynicism I harbor now comes from growing up only to realize that all those morals I was raised to admire were not really all that practiced by the very people who taught them to me, or they tried to follow those morals while I was a child, but as age progressed, clearly they ran out of steam trying to live up to them.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I can't see why evolution SHOULDN'T be compatible with religion.

Yeah I never understood what the problem was. If evolution did happen, then God caused it to happen that way. He is God after all, it's not like he couldn't do it.

I find it ironic that Catholic schools have been teaching Evolution for years, and it's the Public Schools that are teaching Intelligent Design, heh!

I admit a lot of any cynicism I harbor now comes from growing up only to realize that all those morals I was raised to admire were not really all that practiced by the very people who taught them to me

The thing is, their weakness doesn't disprove the morals. Of course I don't know which morals you're referring to.

 

[Drtooth]

I admit a lot of any cynicism I harbor now comes from growing up only to realize that all those morals I was raised to admire were not really all that practiced by the very people who taught them to me, or they tried to follow those morals while I was a child, but as age progressed, clearly they ran out of steam trying to live up to them.

The one thing that has made me angry (and if anyone's keeping record, this is THE source of any anger I harbor) is that you're told to play nice and play fair and share and all this other crap, only to find out everyone in charge of anything (a country, a business, a branch of organized religion... even people you knew who are better off than you) don't abide by them. it's like... It's like one of those kids no one ever wanted to play with because every time you were playing a game, they'd change the rules so they'd win, even if they're losing. I've been saying this for a while, but the people who whine the MOST about how we lost morals are the most amoral people there are. It's not even a dog eat dog world anymore... it's a dog does unspeakable things to dog and dog's family and then eats dog and digests dog on dog's mother's grave.

It's like there's a set of rules that are there to keep honest people. Nice guys don't even finish last anymore. They don't even get to finish. And any nice guy who does manage to squeak by, the not so nice people drag them through the mud.

"Morals" are just a buzzword and codename for the backwards practice of using religion to get what you want. If people cared about true morality, they'd realize that the morals the moral authority are dishing out are footnote crap and all the while ignoring the important stuff. It's all dirty fighting now, and the honest people have to play by a set of rules that keep them down. Yet, if someone like that goes nuts and turns, the second they do one thing wrong, they leap on them and punish them to the fullest extent of ANYTHING! You can't steal from a company that does nothing BUT commit crime. Weird and embittering!

 

[CensoredAlso]

Nice guys don't even finish last anymore.

This is nothing new; it's always been that way.

If anyone's see the entire episode of the Muppets on 60 Minutes, there was also a guest later in the program who called himself a radical, but not the way most people would think. He felt the most radical doctrine of all was the Sermon on the Mount, and it's very true. It dares to defy everything we know about the unjust world and claim that the last shall be first, and the first shall be last.

"Morals" are just a buzzword and codename for the backwards practice of using religion to get what you want. If people cared about true morality, they'd realize that the morals the moral authority are dishing out are footnote crap and all the while ignoring the important stuff.

The thing is you seem to be saying that the word "morals" can only equal hypocrisy, simply because of the actions of some people. Personally, I don't let people like that appropriate a good word.

 

[Convincing John]

It's possible, but like I say, the evidence for it at the moment is about the same as the evidence for Big Foot.

And yet...people still can't prove or disprove this clip either way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvEERL2Efdk

On the Discovery Channel, they talked to a man who thought a bear had smashed through his screened-in front porch. The tufts of hair left behind weren't from a bear (he knew because he was a hunter). When the hair was taken in for analysis, they said "We don't know what it is. We've never seen anything like it before. All we can tell you is that it's from a real animal and the DNA structure falls in between baboon and human."

In church when I was a kid, I asked the pastor where dinosaurs fit into all of this. Obviously, they existed. We have all kinds of skeletons and fossils.

"Did Noah bring two of each dinosaur on the Ark? I mean, he had to if God said so, right? Also, in school, they said man and dinosaurs never lived at the same time, but if all the animals were created a few days before Adam and Eve, that includes dinosaurs. So that means Adam and Eve would have seen them at least. How could you miss them? They were HUGE!"

The pastor did a Charlie Brown "Well...I...uh..." then got distracted by another person asking him something. I never got an answer to my question (at least from him).

One of my philosophies is to keep an open mind to new possibilities, but think things through logically and believe what you choose to believe.

One of my favorite question marks in The Bible is exactly what Ezekiel saw in the sky (the wheel within a wheel of gleaming metal). There have been a lot of very interesting discussions about that over the years.

Convincing John