The Bible and Love and Christians

[CensoredAlso]

I respectfully disagree. I look at it kind of like this. Let's say you have a brand new car. you got it as a gift and it's the coolest car you've ever had. Now, are you going to want to just keep that car in your garage and not touch it? Maybe, just clean it and keep it shiny but never driving it around? Or would you go out and show it to everyone you know? I feel that's how Jesus' love is. His gift of salvation is the greatest gift I've ever received and I want everyone else to know that love.

Well the thing is, I think the other side of that argument is that, other people also have nice cars that may be a different brand than yours but still gets them where they need to go.

But I do understand what you mean and I don't think faith should be a completely private thing either. Like how someone's sexual orientation shouldn't have to be private just because someone else is uncomfortable with it. In the same way I don't think you should have to be private about your religious beliefs just because someone doesn't like them. To that I say, "Too bad, so sad."

That's where you're wrong. The bad guys don't agree with me. I absolutely DON'T believe that God hates gays.

Exactly, I wouldn't compare the Westboro people to any other Christian group. They're on a completely different page. They're not even reading the same book. Heck, they don't even go to the same bookstore! ; )

The only power the Westboro people have is all the unnecessary attention the press gives them. And everytime we watch them. In fact, I'll stop talking about them right now! Lol

 

[frogboy4]

I don't believe any thinking person considers the Westboro Church people anything other than poisonous, self-promoting loony birds. However, their message is that permitting gays and other groups equal rights that fall outside of their myopic view of God's law will cause wrath upon the United States. There are religious people who don't resort to their disgusting tactics yet still believe the same thing and try to prevent civil rights in other ways. That kind of disturbs me.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I don't believe any thinking person considers the Westboro Church people anything other than poisonous, self-promoting loony birds. However, their message is that permitting gays and other groups equal rights that fall outside of their myopic view of God's law will cause wrath upon the United States. There are religious people who don't resort to their disgusting tactics yet still believe the same thing and try to prevent civil rights in other ways. That kind of disturbs me.

See the thing is, it's one thint to protest something because you honestly don't agree with it. That's what most Americans do and it's what this country is all about. But these Westboro people are simply out of touch with reality. They are protesting because they think the military has been too tolerant of homosexuals. Um...too tolerant? That organization that up until very recently employed the infamous "Don't Ask Don't Tell?" THAT is being too tolerant?

As you said, they are indeed loony. And like I said a few posts back, there's only like 10 of them, maybe 9. For them to get any ounce of attention from the media is embarrasing. For the Supreme Court to use them as an example of free speech was unfortunate to say the least. For us to talk about them at all...we might as well be dishing on Brittany Spears' love life too, it's basically on the same level!

 

[GonzoLeaper]

The sad thing is- much as I absolutely despise their message of hatred (because there is certainly no love whatsoever being displayed through Westboro) - it's a very tricky thing to say they don't have the right to say it. Thankfully, most people understand that this group is a cult more so than an actual Christian church. But it upsets me on two levels- one, for the horrible agony they add to the grief that families are already facing at funerals and for everyone else that is hurt by their hateful comments and for everyone that looks at them and sees that as an example of Christianity. That is not what Jesus looks like at all. He is Love.
But even so, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press and the freedom to peacefully assemble are all among the most cherished rights Americans hold to in The Constitution. And they should be protected.
I just don't understand how this group keeps showing up at funerals at random. Aren't things like that kept private for families usually? I mean- Fred Phelps can say whatever he wants from his pulpit and if he can find a way to peacefully propulgate his message without picketing everything- then that's his right and I can't deny him that. I just don't understand what they understand when they say they're "picketing" a funeral. What do they hope to accomplish? It's not like they're going to not bury the body or go through with the funeral. This kind of craziness seems like something that should be able to be stopped with a "disturbing the peace" charge.
Anyway- sorry to go off about that- I just get upset with this group. The best thing I can say on this topic is pray for them as they really need to get to know the God of both judgment and love and mercy.

 

[GonzoLeaper]

LOL! It's just one of those things that always stuck with me - that she kept repeating that just because you're a Christian doesn't mean you have to be nice to people. I'd never heard anyone actually come out and say that so plainly before! I'm not certain many people would actually support that, but as stated, I do think there are many Christians who believe it is their right to use aggressive tactics in order to convert non-Christians into their way of thinking because they believe that's the right thing to do. Why is it so hard for some folk to respectfully agree to disagree; to offer mutual respect and opportunity to those who think differently and move on?

Okay- I just saw this and just had to say- Because you're a Christian, you DO have to be nice to people and you should. How else can you show them the love that Jesus commanded us to show ALL people- not just the ones you like or agree with? I agree than Ann Coulter gets quite acerbic in her comments- and while some things can be funny- for the most part, I would not say anything quite the way she does in her books.
Anyway- the main point is that Christians are known by their love. That's what Jesus told us in John 13:34-35. That's how He defines Himself (1 John 4:8). Showing people the love of Christ means reaching out to help everyone who needs help. And it is also loving to obey Christ's command to preach the Gospel and always be ready to share the reason for the hope you have in Christ- and always with gentleness and respect. After a mutual, respectful exchange of ideas- if people fully understand what The Bible says but aren't ready to accept it or choose to reject it, then you've done your part. Of course, you can keep praying for people, but it's up to The Holy Spirit to change lives from there. You can respectfully agree to disagree with people. And you should always keep showing love to them- the genuine love of Christ will lift Christ up and when He is lifted up, He said He will draw all men to Himself. So if people can see a genuine love that really cares about them as a person and not just as a trophy and that is always there to help them and encourage them even if there are disagreements- then I really think it's a combination of The Holy Spirit drawing on people's lives of course, coupled with the genuine Love that comes from the realest Love of all that will interest people and bring them to Christ.

 

[Bannanasketch]

Okay, instead of just replying each comment, I think I'll just say my own reply. On the debate about gay marriage: I still stand on my view that same-sex marriage is a sin and not what marriage was intended to be in the eyes of God. I do not support same-sex marrigae at all, in any form. BUT on the other hand, I have a hard time figuring out what to believe about the RIGHT to same-sex marriage. Though I completely disagree with homosexuality, is it okay to believe in the right to have same-sex marriages/ I struggle with that question all of the time. I have bisexual and gay friends and they accept that I disagree with their choice. But I don't know what to think about gay marriage. Should I be allowed to put a ban on same-sex marriages becuase it goes against MY beliefs? Frogboy has brought up several good points that I can understand and that I ponder. I may always believe that homosexuality is a sin, but can I believe in a person's right to that sin?

 

[Drtooth]

I remember Christian Republican pundit and author of the highly critical book Godless, Ann Coulter saying several times that just because a person is a Christian doesn't mean they have to be nice to people. She even went as far as saying, "I'm a Christian first and a mean-spirited, bigoted conservative second, and don't you ever forget it." and that Jews should be "perfected" into Christians. I know she's just one obnoxious and extreme example of her faith, but I fear that deep down many Christians have the same kinds of feelings - that somehow their theological righteousness gives them license to belittle, mock and meddle in the lives of others rather than offer mutual respect without the intention of changing others to a Christian point of view. That's dangerous, especially the "perfected" ideal. While I understand what she's saying, it comes from a condescending place that robs the legitimacy of the spirituality that speaks to others the same way that Christianity speaks to Christians.

That's where everything becomes corrupted. When some loud mouth joker who makes a fortune and a half telling people what to think, what to do, how to vote, and that everything that's bad for them is actually good for them because to argue with a thread of their "logic" is to become a horrible traitor.

Honestly, over the years I kept hearing the same crap coming from them, amounting to "They're trying to attack your beliefs by taking away your Christmas Trees! By the way, look the other way when WE take away your jobs to China, your right to collectively bargain, and basically all the other basic human rights everyone in this country has a right to."

To me, the religious part of religious politics is manipulation and nothing more. As someone who IS Christian and raised that way, it makes me sick to my core.

Ann's "perfection of Jews" was part of the half butt "We pretend to love Israel so we can get those votes" rhetoric that's, again, manipulation. Do you know the worst part? No matter how devoid of logic, facts, common sense, or whatever their opinion is, people agree with it because they feel they have to. And that's my extremism VS. common ground argument. Sheesh... no wonder why the country is so polarized. Gimme the calm, disagreeable without being nasty Ben Stein anyday. I can even agree to a certain percent of what he says, or I can at least see his point.

Secondly, again... I must reiterate the whole paradox of "You can't be a bigot to a bigot or they'll call you on it." Now, there are some people who, while disagreeable, say "I'm sorry, but this is what I believe." You can't change their minds no matter how kindly you try to assuage them. But what gets me is denying rights because of some hang up or value system or something. I hate Smokers, and I'm glad they don't make them smoke in stores or indoor places. I hate when they're dang second hand blows into my face. Every time... no matter what angle. And as much as I'd like to take the cigs away from them, it's their right to smoke them. It is a paradox and a delicate balance... I don't want someone stealing my cartoons and junk food (and they ARE) because they don't like that people eat them.

That said, I hate to say that everyone's entitled to their own beliefs, as there are dangerous beliefs out there... and sometimes dangerous beliefs lead to dangerous actions. How's this... everyone's entitled to their own beliefs as long as they aren't hurtful and come from a dark place, if only for the safety of others.


Thirdly... oh yes, by all means fake atheists... pressure your own towns to outlaw Christmas Trees and make everyone call things "generic holiday." Yeah... you are so courageous when doing that... meanwhile when it comes to the rights of others, you're all thumbs. Seriously, whateder any side anyone is on, I hate pressure groups. They either go too far to an extreme or when they ACTUALLY have something positive to say or do, they're as effective as a piece of tissue paper trying to stop a speeding train.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Okay, instead of just replying each comment, I think I'll just say my own reply. On the debate about gay marriage: I still stand on my view that same-sex marriage is a sin and not what marriage was intended to be in the eyes of God. I do not support same-sex marrigae at all, in any form. BUT on the other hand, I have a hard time figuring out what to believe about the RIGHT to same-sex marriage. Though I completely disagree with homosexuality, is it okay to believe in the right to have same-sex marriages/ I struggle with that question all of the time. I have bisexual and gay friends and they accept that I disagree with their choice. But I don't know what to think about gay marriage. Should I be allowed to put a ban on same-sex marriages becuase it goes against MY beliefs? Frogboy has brought up several good points that I can understand and that I ponder. I may always believe that homosexuality is a sin, but can I believe in a person's right to that sin?

Well let me say, to me the most important thing is that you and your friends manage to be friends while still disagreeing on issues. I mean, big deal when we agree with our friends; that's fairly easy.

As far as marriage rights, well, here's something to consider, regarding the separation of Church and State. Marriage is a religious institution but not exclusively so. It is also a state institution. In this country, married couples are entitled to certain rights under law, for instance regarding health insurance for their families. I personally don't think it's right for children of gay couples to be denied such rights just because of their parents' sexual orientation. When a gay individual is in the hospital, his or her partner should be able to identify him or herself as the primary contact (which as I understand it, gay couples could not do under "Don't Ask Don't Tell"). I think it would be cruel to deny gay individuals these same rights under U.S. law.

Now this logic doesn't necessarily apply to all situations. For instance I don't think abortion should be protected; I think it should be discouraged. And I'm not saying that just for religious reasons, but also for civil rights reasons. There's a lot of complicated issues in our little nation today.

 

[Drtooth]

As far as marriage rights, well, here's something to consider, regarding the separation of Church and State. Marriage is a religious institution but not exclusively so. It is also a state institution. In this country, married couples are entitled to certain rights under law, for instance regarding health insurance for their families. I personally don't think it's right for children of gay couples to be denied such rights just because of their parents' sexual orientation. When a gay individual is in the hospital, his or her partner should be able to identify him or herself as primary contact (which as I understand it, gay couples could not do under "Don't Ask Don't Tell"). I think it would be cruel to deny gay individuals these same rights under U.S. law.

THAT'S what I want to hear. We can all agree that when this is used for political reasons, it's all about power play. Do you think that they WANT to give those rights to anyone but their rich buddies that get them re-elected?

Remember that whole Bruhaha when Target was caught giving money to a certain political candidate? They didn't give it to him to support his anti-Gay marriage stance, they gave it to him because he's a pro-Big Business, Small government buddy boy who was going to make sure that they can do whatever they want to do and he can keep getting his elections bought.

Seriously, when it comes all down to it, we have a common enemy, and we're too fragblasted blinded by our own extremism to see it.

Yes, they should have rights to marry, and yes, you should have rights to not like the fact that they do. But it doesn't matter to anyone until we all realize we're pawns in a sinister game of part monopoly, part Stratego, and what we believe winds up working against us in the long run.

 

[frogboy4]

Okay, instead of just replying each comment, I think I'll just say my own reply. On the debate about gay marriage: I still stand on my view that same-sex marriage is a sin and not what marriage was intended to be in the eyes of God. I do not support same-sex marrigae at all, in any form. BUT on the other hand, I have a hard time figuring out what to believe about the RIGHT to same-sex marriage. Though I completely disagree with homosexuality, is it okay to believe in the right to have same-sex marriages/ I struggle with that question all of the time. I have bisexual and gay friends and they accept that I disagree with their choice. But I don't know what to think about gay marriage. Should I be allowed to put a ban on same-sex marriages becuase it goes against MY beliefs? Frogboy has brought up several good points that I can understand and that I ponder. I may always believe that homosexuality is a sin, but can I believe in a person's right to that sin?

I'm glad to have given you something to think about. We don't have to personally agree with one another. I admire your being forthright. It is my feeling that if you heard an Atheist saying, "I just don't know what to think about Christians and whether or not they should be allowed to baptize their kids or witness in public" that you'd think it's none of their business. Why should your religious doctrine dictate how far I can climb in life as a proud gay person. Why should my agnosticism affect how you worship Jesus or how you raise your kids someday?

We live in a culture of absolutes. It's either-or. If you're for something you must shout it from the rooftops at all times and if you're against something than you must make sure that nobody else is permitted to explore it on their own. It's all rather childish to me.

Think what kind of a face-lift religious groups would receive if they stopped political opposition to gay marriage while maintaining their personal message. Think of how Christians would perceive atheists if they chose to enjoy the holiday festivities instead of boycotting them.

I respect your right to have this opposing point of view, but I must point out the use of the term "sin" three times when referring to gays in just this single post feels a little like finger-wagging to me. Once was enough. I also think it was mentioned earlier that many find it disrespectful to imply that being gay is a choice. Even many anti-gay groups take issue with the use of the term "choice" over something they see as far more complex. One doesn't chose their emotions, they learn manage them. We just disagree with the management style and I guess that's where choice comes in, however to me it's a choice between honesty and denial. I choose honesty. That's just how I personally see it. Even if you believe any part of it is a choice it's about as respectful as if I continually referred to Christianity as a mental disorder or a psychological delusion. Even though there are many people who believe that, it doesn't advance the dialogue with a Christian person. I'm not calling anybody out, I'm just trying to make sure we maintain a thoughtful discussion here on all ends.

On a somewhat related note - Since "choice" was mentioned, I'd also like to reiterate my objection to the term "lifestyle" that is often used by those who oppose gay rights. Lifestyle is a thinly-veiled term used to imply promiscuity and social debauchery. It's wrong to allocate those basic issues of human frailty to gays. Most of us are rather boring and we're not all sex-crazy contrary what's seen on television and in the movies. Nobody's having that much cheeky fun or else they'd have a permanent residence at the free clinic! Being gay isn't necessarily a focus unless we're fighting for rights. Like my straight guy friends who can only see the entirety of intimacy with woman, I can only see that with a male.

I've been out for 20 years and seen much, but have yet to see a "gay-to-straight conversion" really work in the long run. At least not without a life of pain and/or continued incidents. Heck, would anyone want an "ex-gay" to marry their son, daughter, friend or sibling? It's easy to say that a person can "change" but it's a lot different when that person comes into the life of the ones you love. I'd never trust that no matter how full of Christ that person is! But hey, if that's what an individual wants to do then go for it! I have friends who'd hate that statement, but I believe in personal freedoms that we all should pursue happiness and what that means to us.