The Bible and Love and Christians

[frogboy4]

I've been away from this thread for a while now and after reading through a number of the responses here, there have been a number of good points made.
I don't care to dredge up old posts now although there are things I could respond to, but I don't think I need to reiterate myself.
The bottom line that is worth reiterating comes down to this.
I am a Christian and by that term, I mean that I am a follower of Jesus Christ and believe Him when He said that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life in John 14:6. (It's one of my favorite verses and thus I use it as part of my signature.)
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And how can I be called loving toward people if I neglect to warn them about the reality of an eternal place of torment apart from God and tell them the wonderful great Good News that Jesus loves us so much that He paid for our wrongs so we would never have to go there and that through trusting Him as Savior we can go to an eternity in Heaven with Him instead?
Would you honestly not want to be told of this so you can consider it? (Note I said "told", not barraged, bombarded or bamboozled with. I get that some folks feel that it's all a lie, or a myth or misinterpretation or whatever and that they've heard it all before and are tired of hearing it. But with eternity at stake, I think it bears repeating.)
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So here's to people of different beliefs and positions who are open to presenting different viewpoints with mutual love and respect and able to agree and/or disagree agreeably without slamming anyone or their beliefs. And as Tiny Tim observed, God bless us, everyone.

Hi. I don't mean to single you out specifically in this (just making sure you know that) and I certainly get and support where you're coming from, but remain unmoved by this same message echoed my 36 years on this planet.

I grew up studying the Christian theology in church, choir, family gatherings, Sunday school, Bible studies, retreats and religiously-based private schools until the age of 17. There’s nothing I’ve overlooked. While I enjoy hearing others share their walks of life, I don't care to hear Christianity slipped into conversations ad nauseam simply because followers of Christ believe I'll eventually come around to thinking differently and that my soul will be saved from a fiery pit that I don’t believe exists. That happens a lot with some (but as you’ve stated - not all) religious people. There’s nothing mysterious about Christianity to me and other non-believers. We do “get it”, yet still respectfully reject it. It doesn’t make any of us bad or evil; we merely have a different point of view. If there really is a pit, lowly little me will in good company with some of the most phenomenal people the world has seen like Gandhi and Einstein.

There are many people in this country and the world that won't allow non-Christians and gays to live our lives to the fullest under our own heartfelt beliefs that are just as dear as the ones Christians hold. We’re also accused of “over-sharing” and “lifestyle-flaunting” that occurs much more in the religious community. Holding the hand of my partner in the grocery store or giving him a peck on the cheek in the subway should have no more gravity than a straight couple doing the same. However, the screaming, red-faced fire and brimstone town square preacher counter-productively expressing his freedom of speech does a disservice to everyone in my eyes.

There’s no “indoctrination” (not a dirty word, by the way) in the gay community like there is with the inherently evangelical nature of Christianity. We believe in living open, honest and our hands outstretched to gays who have already discovered their heart’s identity. We happen. There’s no need to recruit, but many charismatic religions can’t understand that and force their ill-fitting template of indoctrination onto us. There are also folk who think it right to withhold certain civil rights and equal protections under the law either because of our faith or same-sex identity. That’s what troubles me.

The problem happens when Christians stomp on the rights of non-believers and when non-believers stomp on the rights of Christians. I think we can all get along if we get over ourselves. I truly do. A few key leaders stir the pot and the rest of us are unhappily stuck in the middle not understanding that we have far more similarities than differences.

 

[Bannanasketch]

Yeah you sure have alot to read through. There have been some interesting discussion going on here. And I will be sure to PM you if I ever need prayer. I'll pray for you and your ministry. Thank you for doing what God has called you to do.

 

[RedPiggy]

He saw the preaching that you get to Heaven by works when the Bible says faith. And he could not take it anymore.

Not to harp on Catholicism, as this is simply historical fact, not griping, but there were LOTS of things Luther griped about, like, ninety-something things. Buying your way into Heaven was also on his list of no-no’s. Now, Catholicism has worked on some of those things, if only now the Pope wouldn’t be so stubborn about accepting some constructive criticism about some current sins running rampant.

A Church more like what he read in the Bible.

Well, it really depends on which apostle you’re going to like better, actually.

Dressing up amazing on the outside. Being brainwashed to think that you have to wear a certain thing to be acceptable in Christ's house.

My maternal grandfather took me to a service while we were visiting relatives out of state. I’ve noticed a generational component to the dress code: the older you are, the fancier you are. I’m not much into “look fancy in front of the Lord”, but some kids dressed so shoddily, you’d think their parents just tossed some random clothes on them and stuck them in the car. Maybe it’s due to my age, but I was surprised to find it irked me a little. I wasn’t going all-out, but a sort of “business casual” seems appropriate.

So, if dress codes are a big issue with you, I say, give it another generation or so and it’ll work itself out.

Preachers scream more about Fox News, the Tea Party, Obama, and Congress than they do about Christ when the Bible tells us not to worry and that God has the king in his hand.

Well, and I think this is true, so don’t consider it gospel or anything, but I’m pretty sure it’s illegal, too. The whole reason churches get to avoid taxes is because they promised not to be political (separation of church and state is meant to protect BOTH, you know). Since a lot of them refuse, I say the IRS needs to revoke church tax-free status. Churches are a service-oriented business (and a merchandise-oriented business if you count all those who sell DVDs of themselves and stuff) and as such should not be ignored by the IRS just because of the content of their business. It really does encourage “Oh, yeah, I’m a church”-type statements just to get out of paying their bills.

It has become a place of Homophobia.

To be fair, though, there are lots of denominations that are getting over it, even encouraging acceptance of it. Yes, I’m aware that a couple of people here and there in the bible are irritated over it, but in all honesty, the OT references are to make Jews not do things other pagan cults were doing and the rare NT references are from people who really don’t need to lecture anyone. JESUS didn’t say SQUAT about it and neither should we, since Christianity IS supposed to follow HIS teachings, not everyone else’s.

Oh, and because we have better understandings of where sexuality comes from (the bodies themselves, which is really God’s problem, since He made us).

It has become a place of gossip and judgment.

LOL, do you live in the Bible Belt, or do they do that everywhere?

We are told tattoo’s and piercings are bad.

*scratches head* Well, actually, that one’s in there. On the other hand, like just about every other rule, it’s mostly to stop you from pagan practices common at the time. When it talks of tattoos, for example, it is really talking of doing something special for Dagon, or whatever, than it is a simple “Mother”, you know?

We are told certain kinds of music is bad.

And that one is hilarious because NO ONE sounds like ancient Hebrews when they sing. All of the “cherished and appropriate” songs were written centuries after Christ … in Europe and elsewhere. I mean, if you were striving for accuracy, Handel isn’t your guy.

We are told one sip of alcohol is bad.

Retort that not only did Jesus drink wine like everyone else, but He made the point to make AWESOME wine at a wedding for His first miracle. The bible counsels against getting smashed, not drinking.

The Church in America is not known for it’s love. It’s known for its hypocrisy. And I can’t defend it.

If my mood was, uh, “downer,” I’d be more than happy to agree with you. However, the rational side of me says that it’s really not the church, per se, than US culture in general. Even on this site you can find hypocrisy. It’s in religion, forums, politics, work … it’s everywhere.

And it’s time we change this before it’s too late.

I’d focus more on the young’uns. It’s highly unlikely you’ll get anyone over 50 to change their minds, though my maternal grandfather has backed off a lot of his early, stricter schtick.

We do “get it”, yet still respectfully reject it. It doesn’t make any of us bad or evil; we merely have a different point of view.

Well, keep in mind that while Jesus had some personality issues, if you ignore His followers who are consistently characterized as being unbelievable arrogant and cowardly jerks, you’ll realize that Jesus Himself wasn’t nearly as big a one as they were. His followers like to spread the stories of a place that didn’t exist in Judaism at that time (though other religions had ‘em, like Hades), while Jesus is preaching about caring for the wandering sheep instead of setting up a barbeque.

 

[CensoredAlso]

Martin Luther is a man that a lot of us owe part of our salvation to. He changed the entire course of the Church because he saw how the Church was going completely against what the Bible say’s. He saw the preaching that you get to Heaven by works when the Bible says faith. And he could not take it anymore.

We'll have to respectfully disagree here. Not every Christian agrees with everything Martin Luther had to say, particularly when it comes to faith vs. works. It's not that Catholics think God's love is conditional on our works. It's just that God gave us his teachings for a reason, so we would follow them, and they are the most important thing to be focusing on.

If we're talking about "The Church of America" it needs to be remembered that there are several different Churches in this country with their own unique voice and no less worthy.

Plus there are several different religions in this country who have nothing to do with Martin Luther or the Pope for that matter, yet I believe are still guaranteed salvation. : )

I am often told of how awful they where treated by the Church. I am told horror stories and I am often forced to agree with their conclusion: The Church (as a whole) as become nothing like the image of Christ.

This I do agree with, religion is run by humans and it's very easy for them to get away from Christ's teachings. This goes for any religion or any organization for that matter. A lot of time is spent on nonesense and trivial things and sadly prejudice (Though the schools I went to were actually pretty enlightened in this area). Again, Jesus knew his teachings wouldn't be easy, or easily accepted, that's why it's so incredible when we do meet truly decent people in this world.

Preachers scream more about Fox News, the Tea Party, Obama, and Congress than they do about Christ when the Bible tells us not to worry and that God has the king in his hand.

Yes, the Church should be above politics. Heck, we ALL should be above politics! Liberal or conservative, they're not doing us any good.

 

[GonzoLeaper]

First off, I'll just respond briefly to this

Hi. I don't mean to single you out specifically in this (just making sure you know that) and I certainly get and support where you're coming from

Just wanted to say that I saw that and I understand that. And I do appreciate it, frogboy4.

Well, keep in mind that while Jesus had some personality issues, if you ignore His followers who are consistently characterized as being unbelievable arrogant and cowardly jerks, you’ll realize that Jesus Himself wasn’t nearly as big a one as they were. His followers like to spread the stories of a place that didn’t exist in Judaism at that time (though other religions had ‘em, like Hades), while Jesus is preaching about caring for the wandering sheep instead of setting up a barbeque.

All I wanted to say on this is that Judaism holds to the Old Testament and it certainly does mention Sheol or Hades, the place of the grave. In the New Testament, we read in Luke 16 Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus. When they died, the rich man was in anguish in Gehenna and Lazarus was in Abraham's Bosom. This parable helps explain how death worked in the Old Testament before the death and Resurrection of Christ. Christians differ on beliefs on this, but many generally believe that the final punishment will not come until the end of the world and Christ's return when He sets up His kingdom.
But Jesus spoke a number of times on the lake of eternal fire- more so than He did on Heaven. (see Luke 16 for one, Mark 9, Matthew 25, Matthew 10:28 and still others).

Anyway- I mainly wanted to tell you all about this movie I saw some of the other day that I think really speaks to this same discussion we've been having here.
I recently saw some of this documentary on TV last night and I really think it is worth checking out. It's called "Lord, Save Us From Your Followers"
http://www.lordsaveusthemovie.com/home.html
This is a documentary made by Daniel Merchant, a Christian guy who spent like 3 years walking around America and talking to people about Jesus and asking opinions on various divisive issues in America today.
From the clips I saw, there are scenes of Christian churches of all kinds of denominations coming together to show the love of Christ to people who were suffering from the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, a Christian organization serving the homeless of Oregon by sharing meals with them and washing their feet and other services, a bit on Rev. Rick Warren's church, Saddleback Church, and the way he's used his influence to help fight AIDS and poverty in Africa, and a really neat idea with a confessional booth. Dan Merchant took the idea of a Catholic confessional booth and turned it around. He set up this booth at a gay pride event in Oregon and invited people in so that he could confess to them. He confessed and apologized to members of the gay community for the way the Christian church has marginalized, demonized and condemned gays and lesbians and he apologized for not loving them as he should- because Jesus loves everyone. And if we truly love Christ as His followers should, then we must love everyone because He commands it. And Jesus said that is how everyone in the world will know someone is truly a Christian- by the love we have one for another. (John 13:34-35)
Anyway- I just thought the whole thing was great. That is what the Christian church should be known for. Unfortunately, it gets known more for condemnation and judgment and finger-pointing and being jerks in general- when it should be known for putting the love of Christ in action. One of the guys at the homeless shelter was asked why he thought the people there would be motivated to come and serve him like that and he hit the nail right on the head. - "Because they're Christians and they have Christ in them." That's exactly the right answer and exactly what Christians should be known for. And I apologize and confess that too many times myself and other Christians have not been what we should be- we have not been the Good Samaritan showing love and helping others, but rather the pious Pharisees who walk on by.
Anyway, I just thought some of you all on this thread might be interested in taking a look at it. Just something to think about- especially as it relates to the "culture wars" and all. I think the documentary does a great job of what this thread has been doing really good too- having good conversations as friends and discussing ideologies and theologies and agreeing to disagree on some things without any personal malice or ill will.
I can't say I agree with everything everyone's said on here, but I do respect your right to your opinion and I like the respectfulness with which you presented it. I hope I can be said to have been as gentle and respectful as well.

 

[RedPiggy]

Christians differ on beliefs on this, but many generally believe that the final punishment will not come until the end of the world and Christ's return when He sets up His kingdom.

I can accept that a lot of people find Apocalyptic stuff filled with hope and peace. I just can't get over how "Michael Bay" it makes God, how out of character Jesus becomes, and how it makes Jesus' sacrifice sound like the check was bounced. To me, the Apocalypse sounds like a parent who does his/her child's homework and then beats the kid for flunking the test afterward.

He set up this booth at a gay pride event in Oregon and invited people in so that he could confess to them. He confessed and apologized to members of the gay community for the way the Christian church has marginalized, demonized and condemned gays and lesbians and he apologized for not loving them as he should- because Jesus loves everyone.

Well, I'm sure that would have been an intersting sight.

And if we truly love Christ as His followers should, then we must love everyone because He commands it.

[to Senator Kelly]
Magneto: Are you a God-fearing man, Senator? That is such a strange phrase. I've always thought of God as a teacher; a bringer of light, wisdom, and understanding. You see, I think what you really fear is me. Me and my kind. The Brotherhood of Mutants. Oh, it's not so surprising really. Mankind has always feared what it doesn't understand. Well, don't fear God, Senator, and certainly don't fear me. Not any more.

In other words, I now see love as something to do because the Enlightened, the Path, the Way ... "encourages" it, not "commands". Trying to live life without, shall we say, believing in rank, is hard, and its caused me no little trouble, but I think it's worth it.

Anyway- I just thought the whole thing was great. That is what the Christian church should be known for.

Yes, it should.

Unfortunately, it gets known more for condemnation and judgment and finger-pointing and being jerks in general- when it should be known for putting the love of Christ in action.

And it's one of the things that makes me uncomfortable. Usually, when a religious leader (priest, bishop, pastor, whatever) sins (use your imagination), the first call is to kick the jerk out. A part of me says, "Uh, YEAH, don't let the door hit you on the way out." The other part says "Where did all the forgiveness go?" Still, I guess it's like how I see my father: I forgive, but trusting further than I can throw is downright foolish.

 

[CensoredAlso]

And it's one of the things that makes me uncomfortable. Usually, when a religious leader (priest, bishop, pastor, whatever) sins (use your imagination), the first call is to kick the jerk out. A part of me says, "Uh, YEAH, don't let the door hit you on the way out." The other part says "Where did all the forgiveness go?" Still, I guess it's like how I see my father: I forgive, but trusting further than I can throw is downright foolish.

I think you've got it; there's a difference between forgiveness and trust. Forgiveness is something we give to the sinner out of mercy and compassion for human life, regardless if they deserve it. But that doesn't mean they automatically earn back our trust without any sign that they have changed.

 

[frogboy4]

This is still a very interesting discussion.

I believe that joy, not fear, should be the reason one comes to a particular religion.

There was a time that I tried to reconcile being gay with being Christian and I still *personally* believe the Bible contains much societal prejudice reflecting the culture at the time when it was written that doesn't apply now. This means I lump the exploitative practice of polygamy, extreme female subservience and endorsement of slavery together with the condemnation of gays. It's kind of like being able to eat shellfish and pork in my mind. We no longer have a need to multiply so much either. However, since I no longer believe in the theology it is kind of moot.

 

[CensoredAlso]

I still *personally* believe the Bible contains much societal prejudice reflecting the culture at the time when it was written that doesn't apply now. This means I lump the exploitative practice of polygamy, extreme female subservience and endorsement of slavery together with the condemnation of gays.

But the idea of the Gospels is that Jesus contradicts polygamy, female subservience and slavery. So in fact the Bible is not promoting prejudice. I know Jesus doesn't specifically mention homosexuality in the Bible, but that doesn't mean he never did. And he would certainly reject condemnation of anyone.

It's kind of like being able to eat shellfish and pork in my mind.

Just want to point out that at the time this was considered a very important achivement in science, the idea that certain food was unsafe to eat. So this wasn't just to be illogical or annoying, there was a purpose at the time. Now of course it's obsolete. But I wanted to get that straight.

 

[frogboy4]

But the idea of the Gospels is that Jesus contradicts polygamy, female subservience and slavery. So in fact the Bible is not promoting prejudice. I know Jesus doesn't specifically mention homosexuality in the Bible, but that doesn't mean he never did. And he would certainly reject condemnation of anyone.

I don't recall him specifically saying that outright. He didn't preach politics, but a family member of mine has cited particular verses (that escape my attention at the moment) to support the exploitation of Chinese labor in the global marketplace. Not that I agree with that either. I remember the verses were ones speaking of slavery and servants. Seems people interpret text as they like.

Just want to point out that at the time this was considered a very important achievement in science, the idea that certain food was unsafe to eat. So this wasn't just to be illogical or annoying, there was a purpose at the time. Now of course it's obsolete. But I wanted to get that straight.

Yeah, that is a cool tidbit I remember from my days of Sunday school.

I guess my main gripe about the Bible as it applies to me is the claim that it supports social prejudice against gays. Many claim it states that our achievement of civil rights, legal marriages and equal protections will result in falling of favor with god and the entire society will be punished for it. That's why some people feel justified in denying gay rights and there's no arguing with that viewpoint as foreign as I find it to be. It's the meddling in the rights of others that I just don't get, but not every Christian feels this way.