TMTM logic

[CherryPizza]

Re-watching Manhattan as an adult, I can still get caught up in the drama, the emotion, the laughs, the magic of the whole thing. However, there are some things that, try as it might, my adult mind can't avoid asking.

Kermit knows that he has amnesia. He knows that he has created an identity from scratch. Should he really be so dismissive when he is found by the Muppets who make it clear that they know who he is?

Yes, the magic of theatre and music can bring out the best in all of us. But how exactly do the "dogs and bears and chickens and... whatever" who were recruited moments before curtain suddenly know the lyrics and movements for the songs, and have costumes and props all ready for them?

The Muppet Show, which was always 'planned' by Kermit still featured much backstage chaos... why would this spur-of-the-moment casting run so slickly without a trace of mayhem?


How does Janice get so quickly from the orchestra pit to the stage for her part in 'Somebody's Getting Married', and who is playing the guitar then?

Who was going to play Kermit's role/s in the show if he didn't get his memory back? What would the lyrics in the wedding song have been? Was the minister prepared to sing, "I now pronounce you ? and Pig"?

Once the wedding starts, we see all four walls of the church. Where exactly is the audience sitting? I realise this may be some sort of symbol for the marriage 'becoming real', but...

Is the story really resolved? Shouldn't we find out if the play is a success?

 

[RedPiggy]

Kermit knows that he has amnesia. He knows that he has created an identity from scratch. Should he really be so dismissive when he is found by the Muppets who make it clear that they know who he is?

LOL. Kermit had also been trying different personalities before losing his memory. He was frustrated that he failed his friends. He was clearly starting to remember anyway, as evidenced by remembering the song at Pete's. It's possible that he hoped by sticking with his new identity he could avoid the stress that he somehow knew was associated with this group.

Yes, the magic of theatre and music can bring out the best in all of us. But how exactly do the "dogs and bears and chickens and... whatever" who were recruited moments before curtain suddenly know the lyrics and movements for the songs, and have costumes and props all ready for them?

The Muppets (and Fraggles, etc) always seem capable of just bursting out into song, LOL. My question is ... they ONLY hired the random animals at the end ... where did everyone else in the pews come from? Was that the reason Doc gets a piece of mail from Kermit that one time? Was it really meant for Uncle Matt?

The Muppet Show, which was always 'planned' by Kermit still featured much backstage chaos... why would this spur-of-the-moment casting run so slickly without a trace of mayhem?

Piggy must have threatened them with her eternal fury if this didn't work out. She's been planning this for ages.

How does Janice get so quickly from the orchestra pit to the stage for her part in 'Somebody's Getting Married', and who is playing the guitar then?

Maybe there's a passage from the pit to under the stage? You don't HAVE to do costume changes in a dressing room.

Who was going to play Kermit's role/s in the show if he didn't get his memory back? What would the lyrics in the wedding song have been? Was the minister prepared to sing, "I now pronounce you ? and Pig"?

I wonder if Gonzo would have. Though, since Piggy secretly hired a real priest, that would have been ... weird, LOL.

Once the wedding starts, we see all four walls of the church. Where exactly is the audience sitting? I realise this may be some sort of symbol for the marriage 'becoming real', but...

Is the story really resolved? Shouldn't we find out if the play is a success?

I highly suspect the point of enclosing the church was to suggest that Piggy's dream of marrying Kermit came true. We're no longer seeing the play but the actual wedding, complete with friends and family in a huge crossover. The entrance to the church was just a plywood facade. When the camera changes to the interior view, that's when the transformation happened. We don't see the humans watching from backstage either. The church looks real in comparison to what they had been using as props before.

Maybe it would have been nice if they added an epilogue during the credits like modern movies like to do. A great in-joke would be for the Daily Chronicle to show up announcing the success of the play.

I just wonder who would pay for what looks like a rather expensive play (it's not like everyone's dressed casually in the audience and it's not a small theater, either) that lasts maybe ten minutes. I can accept that the movie skips to the important parts, but it just seems really rushed to get to the point. It's not like Forgetting Sarah Marshall, where it's edited to make it rather clear we're just seeing snippets. The play in TMTM has a beginning and has no sense that more time is passing than it actually is.

 

[Drtooth]

Kermit knows that he has amnesia. He knows that he has created an identity from scratch. Should he really be so dismissive when he is found by the Muppets who make it clear that they know who he is?

That's what TV/movie amnesia is. I still wonder if it even is a logical and factual ailment or it's just a TV cliche that was invented so they can show old clips of old episodes without having to pay for filming an entire episode.

Kermit, as far as the movie is concerned, almost suffers from Fred Flintstone syndrome... getting smacked on the head and inventing a new personality from scratch (similar to the Powerpuff Girls episode "Los Dos Mojos"). But not quite that fast. And we all know how amnesia works in fiction... a specific plot point always jars the amnesiee back into reality at the right specific moment. Much as I love MTM... that's like the oldest trick in the book. If not one of them... probably one of the first chapters if anything.

The Muppets (and Fraggles, etc) always seem capable of just bursting out into song, LOL.

The old musical logic. NO one breaks out into song. And even the rare occasions someone's able to come up with a coherent song with stanzas and choruses that rhyme perfectly (there are people that talented), how is everyone going to know the words in unison, and have a band somewhere playing the exact agreed upon melody? There's never any logic behind musicals. Even musicals about stage musicals where they actually have a loose behind the scenes concept... such as this one.

MTM does leave me with one thought... this movie proves that there is no real Muppet canon outside of them just being a group of actors. Here's the logic. If the events of TMM, they somehow became successful in Hollywood... why would it be so hard for a celebrity to get a musical together. May take some time, and have to be off Broadway for a year or so... but NO one would deny any celebrity wanting to be in a musical... even if they don't sing. And frankly, I don't even buy the "Hollywood was the Muppets road to stardom" stuff anyway. Kermit's big celebrity started in new York, and the rest of the gang's fame came from a show in Britain... if we want to think logically.

 

[RedPiggy]

That's what TV/movie amnesia is. I still wonder if it even is a logical and factual ailment or it's just a TV cliche that was invented so they can show old clips of old episodes without having to pay for filming an entire episode.

Actually, from what I've read, it's not accurate at all. Amnesia is more like what Dory had in Finding Nemo ... basically, short term memory loss (or long-term memory loss, depending on what neurons were damaged). In any case, amnesia is always rather convenient in plot devices. Kermit must have had long-term memory loss, as he doesn't remember his friends but it's not like he went to Ocean Breeze Soap and then forgot he worked there the next day or anything. Another possibility (sorry, I have to use my psych degree for something, LOL) is that he merely had dissociative fugue (sp?). Basically, you just wake up later with missing time because you shut out memories of your original life. The fact that Kermit was highly stressed kinda points in this direction. It's not so much memory loss as "I just can't deal with it anymore".

The old musical logic. NO one breaks out into song. And even the rare occasions someone's able to come up with a coherent song with stanzas and choruses that rhyme perfectly (there are people that talented), how is everyone going to know the words in unison, and have a band somewhere playing the exact agreed upon melody? There's never any logic behind musicals. Even musicals about stage musicals where they actually have a loose behind the scenes concept... such as this one.

And the amusing thing is, in Fraggle Rock, it shows that some songs are traditional and others write their songs, so it's kind of admitting that most of the time it's not just about randomly bursting out into song. It's more like just singing a song you know that just happens to fit the scenario at the time. The only catch is that in Fraggle Rock the Ditzies contribute to the music too (why are there instrumentals when the singers don't have any?), so it's also possible to be brought into a song with the magic of the Ditzies.

If the events of TMM, they somehow became successful in Hollywood... why would it be so hard for a celebrity to get a musical together.

Read the fine print of the contract ... he never mentioned "for all eternity", LOL. Fame is fickle. All it takes is one movie to bomb and out goes all that success.

Kermit's big celebrity started in new York, and the rest of the gang's fame came from a show in Britain... if we want to think logically.

I kinda figured TMM as a convenient summary of what happened (even Kermit admits to Robin it's not technically accurate). That is to say, Kermit hit it big, met with the others as they were scrounging around for paychecks, and they worked together to bring about various projects like movies and TMS. It's a loose canon, but I feel TMM is canon in the sense that it gives impressions of what everyone else was doing before Kermit meets them. GMC is just a movie, by their own admission. TMTM, meanwhile, I see as a sequel to TMM, set roughly a decade later, where they've hit a rough spot financially and they have to return to having day jobs to survive until the next big hit comes along.
All Muppet projects (the ones I've seen, anyway) all seem to imply that they are just dramatizations of what goes on in their actual lives, aside from the literary/fantasy ones.

 

[Gelfling Girl]

How does Janice get so quickly from the orchestra pit to the stage for her part in 'Somebody's Getting Married', and who is playing the guitar then?

There is only one logical answer to this question. She's a ninja!

 

[beakerboy12]

There is only one logical answer to this question. She's a ninja!

I like the way you thing Gelfing Girl.

 

[minor muppetz]

I wonder if Gonzo would have. Though, since Piggy secretly hired a real priest, that would have been ... weird, LOL.

In the comic book adaptation, it's Gonzo who finds the real minister, and I assumed it was Gonzo who hired him. But who knows if that was cut from the movie or even in the original script.

 

[CherryPizza]

Thank you, RedPiggy, for your considered response to these terribly pressing queries. Strangely, this...

The Muppets (and Fraggles, etc) always seem capable of just bursting out into song, LOL.

gave me flashbacks the following bit of Simpsons dialogue

Professor Frink: Yes, over here... in Episode BF12, you were battling barbarians while riding a winged Appaloosa, yet in the very next scene, my dear, you're clearly atop a winged Arabian! Please do explain it!
Lucy Lawless: Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it.
Professor Frink: Yes, alright, yes, in episode AG04...
Lucy Lawless: Wizard!

 

[CherryPizza]

MTM does leave me with one thought... this movie proves that there is no real Muppet canon outside of them just being a group of actors.

To be fair, that's really the way it is with a lot of movies. The Marx Brothers, Abbott and Costello, etc. always portrayed their popular personae, but every movie or show they did was a stand-alone event which didn't affect the content of other performances. This may have been slightly easier to accept here, though, since they played 'characters'. Sure, Groucho's characters were always acid-tongued, Harpo's were mute bumblers with an uncharacteristic ability to play the harp... but they still played other characters.

In the pre-Muppet Christmas Carol movies, while the Muppets played 'themselves', they were still in this standalone playing-characters-who-are-also-us world. If I were still a first or second year university student, I would probably use the word 'postmodern' to try to make this post seem sophisticated. Think of any movie adaptation of a current TV series (and no, I don't mean the godawful movie remakes of TV series, I mean the ones with the same cast as the TV show), and invariably you'll find that they are the same characters with the same attitudes, same lives and same dynamic... but follow events which seem to be in a parallel universe to those on the small screen.

 

[rexcrk]

gave me flashbacks the following bit of Simpsons dialogue

Professor Frink: Yes, over here... in Episode BF12, you were battling barbarians while riding a winged Appaloosa, yet in the very next scene, my dear, you're clearly atop a winged Arabian! Please do explain it!
Lucy Lawless: Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it.
Professor Frink: Yes, alright, yes, in episode AG04...
Lucy Lawless: Wizard!

****! I was actually gonna post "A wizard did it", ya beat me to it