Is Frozen overrated?

[beatnikchick300]

I would ask anyone who, with a straight face, would try to argue that Frozen is oh-so-feminist (or more female empowering than other Disney films) because it passes the Bechdel test, doesn't have a woman being saved by a man, etc. to read this: https://medium.com/@directordanic/the-problem-with-false-feminism-7c0bbc7252ef (it's a counter-argument that I think is very good).

 

[jvcarroll]

I would ask anyone who, with a straight face, would try to argue that Frozen is oh-so-feminist (or more female empowering than other Disney films) because it passes the Bechdel test, doesn't have a woman being saved by a man, etc. to read this: https://medium.com/@directordanic/the-problem-with-false-feminism-7c0bbc7252ef (it's a counter-argument that I think is very good).

It's clear you have some sort of disdain for the film. We all have different tastes and we're entitled to them, but the assertions made by the article are apparently from a person with some sort of obsessive disorder. If I sound harsh, it's just because I've grown weary of this internet peanut gallery of trolls looking for things to blow out of proportion and hate.

While Frozen isn't a perfect film or even a perfect feminist film (I take issue with the thinness of the female characters) it's an amazing demonstration of how far cinema has come and how far it has left to go. The fact that a film where the male characters are peripheral is now the 5th highest grossing movie worldwide is impressive in itself. Movies have catered to the young male market for so long and I don't think anyone anticipated this outperforming all other Disney and Pixar films, much less getting in the top five films of all-time.

This woman and her lengthy rant are irrational.This is seen in her criticism of the much talked about gay character in the film. It's not clear if the character actually is gay and that doesn't really matter. She implies there's something underhanded by the filmmakers in not saying, "Hey, look at the inclusive gay family in the back!" While she makes a few points, they're mostly thin as tissue paper.

Again, this is far from a perfect film and its characters aren't perfect either. Geez, what a boring film that would make if they all had no problems and every politically correct box was checked. This is a problem I have with many social activists - if a particular effort isn't 100% perfect, they call it a complete failure and wind up vilifying the whole thing. It's small-minded and counter-productive.

This article was nonsense and I'm ashamed of myself for reading the whole thing. Eugh! /soapbox

 

[beatnikchick300]

It's clear you have some sort of disdain for the film. We all have different tastes and we're entitled to them, but the assertions made by the article are apparently from a person with some sort of obsessive disorder. If I sound harsh, it's just because I've grown weary of this internet peanut gallery of trolls looking for things to blow out of proportion and hate.

While Frozen isn't a perfect film or even a perfect feminist film (I take issue with the thinness of the female characters) it's an amazing demonstration of how far cinema has come and how far it has left to go. The fact that a film where the male characters are peripheral is now the fifth highest grossing movie worldwide is impressive. This woman and her lengthy rant are irrational.

This is seen in her criticism of the much talked about gay character in the film. It's not clear if the character actually is gay and that doesn't really matter. She implies there's something underhanded by the filmmakers in not saying, "Hey, look at the inclusive gay family in the back!" While she makes a few points, they're mostly thin as tissue paper.

Again, this is far from a perfect film and its characters aren't perfect either. Geez, what a boring film that would make if they all had no problems and every politically correct box was checked. This is a problem I have with many people who have some sort of cause - if the effort isn't 100% perfect, they call it a complete failure and end up vilifying the whole thing. It's close-minded and counter-productive.

This article was nonsense and I'm ashamed of myself for reading the whole thing. Eugh! /soapbox

1. People with a different opinion do not = trolls. They just have different opinions. And, guess what? People can have opinions that are unpopular without being trolls.
2. So criticizing characters for being weak or stupid or poorly-written is a thin argument? And saying that people are wrong for acting like this movie is oh-so-feminist while giving reasons why it isn't is the blogger being irrational?
3. My disdain for the film (aside from the few things about it I liked) is nothing compared to my disdain for the fans who have an "OMG, how dare you not drool over this masterpiece!" mentality about it, so much so that they won't even hear out any legitimate criticisms of it (not saying that's you, or anyone here, but those fans do exist).

This is becoming the "Worst Muppet Movie" thread all over again.

 

[Drtooth]

It's clear you have some sort of disdain for the film. We all have different tastes and we're entitled to them, but the assertions made by the article are apparently from a person with some sort of obsessive disorder. If I sound harsh, it's just because I've grown weary of this internet peanut gallery of trolls looking for things to blow out of proportion and hate.

Tell me about it. Now, I hate the term politically correct, especially how it's thrown around so much that any news item that bothers someone. I swear that the "political correctness has gone too far" argument is a conspiracy by racists that want to slowly creep racism back into being okay.

However... it's internet bloggers that get so overly offended by trivial bullcrap like completely inoffensive movies as if it actually mattered in their lives. This article is no better than the far right religious zealots posting how everything's brainwashing their kids to be tolerant or NeoCons whining about how a movie is anti-capitalist when no such message exists.

Remember the non-issue about how The Muppets was offensive to minorities because the tongue in cheek idealism of Gary and Walter's hometown was so clean and Reno, Nevada, true to life, was filthy and not reputable? Oh, and Miss Poogy was Mexican because she carried a knife? Or how about the Cookie Hood episode designed to tell kids to not steal anything, which was seen as an evil corporate brainwashing tool? To me, there's no difference between that and Fox News's imaginary conspiracy theories about The Muppets or Sesame Street. Idiotic anger is idiotic and misplaced.

And I agree. I wouldn't call them trolls. More like angry losers who are picking on kid's films instead of going after something that's actually important.

3. My disdain for the film (aside from the few things about it I liked) is nothing compared to my disdain for the fans who have an "OMG, how dare you not drool over this masterpiece!" mentality about it, so much so that they won't even hear out any legitimate criticisms of it (not saying that's you, or anyone here, but those fans do exist).

This is becoming the "Worst Muppet Movie" thread all over again.

This has been a recurring issue with you, and I'm losing any sympathy. Fanbases freaking suck. Said that a million times. But what's more annoying than a rabid fanbase? A rabid anti-fanbase. There's a difference between not liking a film/project and digging up a poorly written rant to passive aggressively prove a point. I hate Pokemon, but I'm not going to dump PETA articles out there.

Is it a movie that's been overly praised? Yes. Does it have an annoying fanbase? Find a fanbase that doesn't and you've got yourself one guy who likes something obscure. Did it make a crap ton of money, meaning that reasonably a company would like to make as much money out of it as possible? Absolutely.

There are worse movies for kids to watch. Don't make me put the Hero of Color City trailer here...

 

[Slackbot]

I couldn't make it through that article. A quarter of the way I found myself skimming, and I threw in the towel at the halfway mark. I get it, she has a raging hate-on for the movie, and she will stop at nothing to tell you every reason you should too, at Ayn Rand levels of wordiness.

All I'll say on this thread's topic is that I don't understand why this film is as smashingly popular as it is, but I enjoyed it, and I practically cheered when the usual "true love at first sight" tropes were subverted with a sledgehammer. I've always hated that trope. It's in my DVD/Blu-Ray collection, and it'll be rewatched.

 

[beatnikchick300]

This has been a recurring issue with you, and I'm losing any sympathy. Fanbases freaking suck. Said that a million times. But what's more annoying than a rabid fanbase? A rabid anti-fanbase. There's a difference between not liking a film/project and digging up a poorly written rant to passive aggressively prove a point. I hate Pokemon, but I'm not going to dump PETA articles out there.

Is it a movie that's been overly praised? Yes. Does it have an annoying fanbase? Find a fanbase that doesn't and you've got yourself one guy who likes something obscure. Did it make a crap ton of money, meaning that reasonably a company would like to make as much money out of it as possible? Absolutely.

There are worse movies for kids to watch. Don't make me put the Hero of Color City trailer here...

i doubt you ever had sympathy, but that's besides the point entirely. I'm far from a rabid anti-fan of anything. I don't regularly go out of my way to tell fans of things I dislike (like Frozen, or Family Guy, or pretty much anything Nickelodeon has made in recent years) that they're stupid morons going with the herd, and have no right to like things I deem stupid or unfunny, because everyone likes things for different reasons, and no one owes it to me to agree on tastes in film or TV (in fact, we can learn from each other through our different viewpoints). I know this, and I'm okay with it. What I'm not okay with is people on either side sniping at each other and acting like "you're wrong! How dare you disagree?". I apologize if I'm come off as doing that (because neither my comments, nor sharing that blog post, are intended to do that), but it's out of irritation from being on the receiving end of it myself.

And of course, there are plenty worse things for kids to watch (I refer you to my previous comment about Nickelodeon in recent years).

 

[jvcarroll]

1. People with a different opinion do not = trolls. They just have different opinions. And, guess what? People can have opinions that are unpopular without being trolls.
2. So criticizing characters for being weak or stupid or poorly-written is a thin argument? And saying that people are wrong for acting like this movie is oh-so-feminist while giving reasons why it isn't is the blogger being irrational?
3. My disdain for the film (aside from the few things about it I liked) is nothing compared to my disdain for the fans who have an "OMG, how dare you not drool over this masterpiece!" mentality about it, so much so that they won't even hear out any legitimate criticisms of it (not saying that's you, or anyone here, but those fans do exist).

This is becoming the "Worst Muppet Movie" thread all over again.

I respect the fact that people are entitled to a different opinion than my own and I stated as such, but nowhere did I state that I respect the opinion itself. I've heard some healthy arguments made against a variety of things in the film, but most of her's are rather bizarre and/or poorly-formed and all of it signals an agenda that has little to do with the film itself. That's what came off as kind of trolling. Hating popular things can easily get a blogger some attention and I really think that's her ultimate motive.

While I liked the film and gave it 4 stars (the strong female leads and its being a rare tale between two sisters pushed it an extra half-star for me), I wouldn't consider myself a particular fan. I gave several of the Harry Potter films the same amount of stars without being a particular fan of that series either.

I see so much more projection into that blogger's comments than what was actually on the screen. We all have different reactions, but many of her's seem to be initiated by something other than the movie itself - an external agenda. And I don't think the movie can be faulted for that. Stuff like that is partly why I don't attend many Open Mic nights anymore. The amount of "trigger warnings" that are given before nearly each performance renders the whole thing ridiculous. Seriously, some people just shouldn't leave home.

But, yeah. You're entitled to your opinion and even though I don't agree with it, I do respect it more than the blog article you listed. I hope that makes things clear. I don't think Frozen, in praise or in venom, deserves that much coverage! Eeep!

 

[Drtooth]

i doubt you ever had sympathy, but that's besides the point entirely. I'm far from a rabid anti-fan of anything. I don't regularly go out of my way to tell fans of things I dislike (like Frozen, or Family Guy, or pretty much anything Nickelodeon has made in recent years) that they're stupid morons going with the herd, and have no right to like things I deem stupid or unfunny, because everyone likes things for different reasons, and no one owes it to me to agree on tastes in film or TV (in fact, we can learn from each other through our different viewpoints). I know this, and I'm okay with it. What I'm not okay with is people on either side sniping at each other and acting like "you're wrong! How dare you disagree?". I apologize if I'm come off as doing that (because neither my comments, nor sharing that blog post, are intended to do that), but it's out of irritation from being on the receiving end of it myself.

Me? I'm trying to walk the middle road here. I saw clips of the movie and I enjoy what I saw, but not nearly as much as Ralph, which is unfortunately underrated.

I think I know where you're coming from with the feminist argument thing, and I'm sure there's an annoying off-putting fanbase that keeps relentlessly saying how feminist it is. At the very least, my praise is... well, a Disney fairly tale movie that avoids this...

It's progressive, at least in terms of the studio. Disney either gets flack for making Princess movies or flack for not making princess movies. The princess brand is too strong for them not too, and I have more problems with that brand than the movies their based off of.

All I'll say on this thread's topic is that I don't understand why this film is as smashingly popular as it is, but I enjoyed it, and I practically cheered when the usual "true love at first sight" tropes were subverted with a sledgehammer. I've always hated that trope. It's in my DVD/Blu-Ray collection, and it'll be rewatched.

When Brave eschewed the end of the movie pair up, a bunch of idiots accused Meraeda of being gay. Even when she was totally checking out someone at the end. Say whatever you will about that movie, avoiding a formulaic ending (which it almost had) was the best thing about that movie.

When it comes to Frozen, Disney didn't make the same princess movie with the "strong female role model" that winds up wearing dresses and having tea parties for merchandising sake. Often the same dresses they HATED wearing in the movies proper! And the remarkable thing is, this was going to be the same Disney movie as usual. Olaf was essentially Iago/Pain and Panic! I'd say that's probably why the film is spoken of well. It throws all of that "formula that's called entertainment" as possible. Though, honestly, I want to see Disney make more films like Bolt, Ralph, Lilo and Stitch... enduring films that don't need fairy tales or love stories to sell themselves. Luckily, they won't make any more (ugh) Dinosaur type films.

 

[jvcarroll]

Me? I'm trying to walk the middle road here. I saw clips of the movie and I enjoy what I saw, but not nearly as much as Ralph, which is unfortunately underrated.

I think I know where you're coming from with the feminist argument thing, and I'm sure there's an annoying off-putting fanbase that keeps relentlessly saying how feminist it is. At the very least, my praise is... well, a Disney fairly tale movie that avoids this...

It's progressive, at least in terms of the studio. Disney either gets flack for making Princess movies or flack for not making princess movies. The princess brand is too strong for them not too, and I have more problems with that brand than the movies their based off of.




When Brave eschewed the end of the movie pair up, a bunch of idiots accused Meraeda of being gay. Even when she was totally checking out someone at the end. Say whatever you will about that movie, avoiding a formulaic ending (which it almost had) was the best thing about that movie.

When it comes to Frozen, Disney didn't make the same princess movie with the "strong female role model" that winds up wearing dresses and having tea parties for merchandising sake. Often the same dresses they HATED wearing in the movies proper! And the remarkable thing is, this was going to be the same Disney movie as usual. Olaf was essentially Iago/Pain and Panic! I'd say that's probably why the film is spoken of well. It throws all of that "formula that's called entertainment" as possible. Though, honestly, I want to see Disney make more films like Bolt, Ralph, Lilo and Stitch... enduring films that don't need fairy tales or love stories to sell themselves. Luckily, they won't make any more (ugh) Dinosaur type films.

I'd expect more Ralph merchandise next time around. The thing is, I don't think they predicted much demand for the Disney-owned characters in the film. Or at least, not yet. They'll already have a fanbase with the sequel. Being that it's kind of the Roger Rabbit or the game world, it deserves more respect.

Also, I'm all for a variety of different films from Disney. But I don't want them to lose the princess movies altogether. I think there's still much left to say and it's one of Disney's most notable genres. In fact, it's the one that started their animation dept.

I'm not sure if Merida is gay or straight or anything else and I like that they never defined it. The point I believe that they were trying to make is that it isn't important. My main critiques for that film were the meandering storyline and that they seemed to axe the potential of a third strong female role in the witch. She was wise and neither good nor evil yet they reduced her to a plot device because...well...women really aren't important beyond a certain age now are they? Okay, I could be projecting that, but it's kind of how it plays out. Why have that character at all? Why not let the magic happen some other way if the character is just going to leave? I really think that's something that got lost in the director swap. However, both in her faults and strenghts, I love the character of Merida. She deserved a better movie. Now, that receiving an Oscar, well that seems overrated to me. But ultimately I don't hate the film or have any venom for it. I felt there was an even greater story underneath.

Anyway, you're right that there are so many good ideas, but Disney doesn't want to take the gamble.

 

[beatnikchick300]

Me? I'm trying to walk the middle road here. I saw clips of the movie and I enjoy what I saw, but not nearly as much as Ralph, which is unfortunately underrated.


When Brave eschewed the end of the movie pair up, a bunch of idiots accused Meraeda of being gay. Even when she was totally checking out someone at the end. Say whatever you will about that movie, avoiding a formulaic ending (which it almost had) was the best thing about that movie.

Ralph, as in Wreck-It Ralph? That one looks like a movie I'd want to see! Same with Brave. I could probably get both On Demand...