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The movie could have been even better (article)

Discussion in 'Muppet Headlines' started by beaker, Nov 29, 2011.

  1. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Did you watch the whole thing? It's pretty amazing at points. Some parts are pretty lousy... like the whole Disney's Atlantis ripoff homage. But then there were the great episodes... Meet Casey Jones, most of the Secret Origins story (Casey Jones's blow up trying to cause a distraction is PRICELESS), Insane in the Membrane (the banned episode where Baxter Stockman recreates his flesh human body, and when it starts to deteriorate, he goes completely psychotic and tries to kill April, yet sees his mother at the same time... a very emotional episode), Lone Raph and Cub... it's all really great until Fast Forward, but I've since learned to appreciate Fast Forward for what it was. But I cannot stress enough I'm very close to the comic books. Those are far better than ANY version, as far as I'm concerned. I'm loving IDW's new series though.

    Still, the fans really loved it, and then when FF came out and then Back to the Sewers, everyone hated it. I agree the old show was fun, but I find that for very great episode (Cowabunga Shred Head or the one with the Robot Bebop and Rocksteady) there's some stupid plot with a space alien and Shredder trying to take their technology or Mutagen Monster (I HATE that episode). But rewatching the show, I'm disappointed they chose action figure characters over Casey Jones (the best non-Turtle in the series) and that of all the aliens in the show, the Triceritons didn't come in until the 6th season...but there's nothing half as cool as those first 5 episodes.

    But then again, I have OTHER reasons for hating on the Turtles fanbase... some of them are very unpleasant people.
  2. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    It's not that I don't like it when TMNT is more serious. I love the 1990 Turtles film for that reason. But for me the 2003 cartoon was just a little too bland and your standard action cartoon. I guess I just preferred the more satirical attitude of the original cartoon.

    Plus I didn't like how that "Turtles Forever" special portrayed the '80s turtles as morons not to be taken seriously. That was completely inaccurate and demeaning. And the 2003 turtles just ended up looking like scolding parents. The writing was just too extreme and broad.
  3. Scooterforever

    Scooterforever Active Member

    Oh dear, did I just stumble upon a TMNT conversation? I loved TMNT as a kid, almost as much as I loved Muppets, and I still play the video games all the time. Don's the best. Anyway, I liked the 2003 series better b/c I felt it was a better adaptation of the original comic book. Heck, some episodes seem to be lifted panel-for-panel from the comic (Baxter's debut, for instance). Of course, as a kid, I loved the cartoony 1987 show. I felt Turtles Forever was great, and I loved seeing the 2003 versions and the 1987 versions interact.

    Anyway, on the subject of the The Muppets movie, I did think it felt a little rushed at the end and would much prefer the ending in which Statler and Waldorf donate the last dollar thus saving the day. Still, it is what it is, and I still enjoyed it.
  4. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    Donatello's my current favorite as well, lol. I don't know, I felt like the first movie was closer to the comic books for me. And Turtles Forever just felt like my childhood was being insulted over and over, lol. But agree to disagree. :)

    Back to the Muppets, hehe.
  5. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    I grew up on the goofy totally tubular to the max turtles, but I also was a fan of the black and white hard edged comic as a kid. I thought the 2003 show finally did it justice by having real action(not watered down stuff) and complex storylines.

    The 2009 tv movie kind of went above and beyond to make fun of and disparage the goofy 1988 turtles. I love the 1988 era ninja turtles, I mean Im a big 80's fan. But the 2003 era, while it leaves out the fun, brings the action and storylines...as well as the better animation. Now granged I stopped following TMNT 2K3 after a couple seasons, but I still am a fan of it even tho its not really a "fun" show. I LOVVVE the original Japanese produced 1987 TMNT cartoon, especially the pilot episode.
    Avilos likes this.
  6. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    Oh totally. I think a lot of Muppet fans realize that MFS started off as an amazing film, and it just unraveled. But Ive now in hindsight come to appreciate the film in a different light. We have had MFS, KSY, VMX, Oz, LTS and M2011.
    I consider Oz to be the absolute worst, to the point where I now refuse to acknowledge its existence. And its not Disneys fault. Its JHC to blame for that piece of crap. KSY gets bagged, but it is what it is. KSY isnt necessarily bad, if anything its on par with 1993 era Disney/Muppet video releases or better. VMX is a mixed bag...but I find it strangely related to the new film which I now dub M11 or M2011. LTS I actually like over the new Muppet film. MFS I like a lot again, just because it was made before the modern edits and technique used in today's kids movies. VMX is more of the modern style I dont care for. Follow that Bird, while its depressing, is part of the original style of shooting Muppet films I miss. Letters To Santa, I dont know what it is, but I love that so much. Even tho it feels like its just cut off and taped together with no explanation
  7. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    That was pretty messed up. I got the joke. I liked how they got the art of 1988 right with the old school universe. But it was mean spirited. I eventually realized I dont care for Turtles Forever, even tho it does wrap things up. But unlike M2011 its not a love letter for fans. Its a crude slap in the face.
    heralde likes this.
  8. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    I get what you mean, it's just that at the same time I always believe that comedy is much more difficult to write and perform than action or drama.
  9. Duke Remington

    Duke Remington Active Member

    Beaker, just because a movie uses modern techniques and edits (like "The Muppets" does) does not make it a bad film.

    Please don't go looking for reasons and excuses to hate the film just because it may not necessarily be your cup of tea.
  10. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Turtles Forever was a Brady Bunch movie type thing. There were a lot of subtle nuances I liked... 80's Donatello's inventions inexplicably working through non-technical means, Bebop and Rocksteady inadvertently saving the say through their own stupidity, the modern turtles finding themselves at home with 80's Splinter (the one 80's character that's treated with respect)... even the references to the "tickle Ray" and the giant mutant vegetables attacking April, who was usually forced into a damsel in distress situation... basically smacking the heck out of those bad season 3 and 4 episodes that they clearly had to rush through to get to the deadline of weekday animation (there were a LOT of stinker episodes then... the aforementioned alien technology episodes).

    But then they screwed up the relationship between Krang and Shredder... while I like how they showed how savage the new Shredder is, they neglected to make it so Krang was really the boss of 80's Shredder. They did get some of the bickering down, though, but they wrote Krang as more of a side kick. Plus there was no call for the 80's Turtles to cry for no reason in the Prime universe.

    Still, I wish the ENTIRE movie was the Prime universe. That was the best part of the movie, and the payoff of the 2k3 Turtles scolding the 80's ones was that the Prime turtles were just as good as kicking them around and calling them sell outs too. And I rather would have seen an actual animated interpretation of the original comics than some sort of mangled fan pudding. now that Nick owns it and they plan to make a show for kids (though they keep the Adult merchandise and IDW comics going), there's even less chance we'll ever see a dark Spawn/The Maxx like TMNT series out there. That's ALL I want.

    I don;t want to get into a debate, but the new series was more complex, only because the 80's one didn't need to be. And while I like the cartoons both... that atmosphere they had in the 80's cheapened the original comics... not the show, but the assumption that they all said Cowabunga and Dude when only Mikey said it (and only because it was the thing to add surfer dudes that talked like that into shows... watch any show from the late 80's and I guarantee you'll find one in any of them)... the Pizza meme became all they were associated with, and no one gave the franchise the respect it deserved. It became a crude caricature of itself, culminating in those HORRIBLE musical concerts and bad off brand merchandising. Plus, lemme just say, I HATE how April was always the damsel in distress. They try to make her a proactive positive female role model, and she keeps getting early Lois Laned in the show. Where as 2k3 (and original comic book) April was willing to fight her way out of stuff along with the turtles. That's a much stronger message than her just being a very abrasive reporter.

    Plus... I dunno... the standards and practices at the time having the turtles use their weapons to cut Pizzas and smack robots... the new series had some hard core action that I've grown to appreciate more in an action show. Still, I want a dark, gritty TV 14 TMNT cartoon on late nights... never going to happen now.
  11. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    I won't even acknowledge the Nickelodeon turtles...TMNT is dead as far as Im concerned, other than the IDW comics. I agree with everything you said Tooth about what make both the classic, 2003 and other stuff great...

    but have you seen footage or pix of the Nick Jr TMNT scheduled for 2012? I almost thought it was a joke. It makes Next Mutation seem like an Oscar winning set production.
  12. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    I never said it was a bad film. I stated in a separate thread how I felt compared to the classic films. Obviously it's not a bad film, as it's had insane critical acclaim with critics, people on here and at the BO
  13. Drtooth

    Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Yeah. I'm sure that the film was pretty well received by fans but comparing it to the classics was something I wasn't going to do anyway. It's a new film made with new techniques... the only thing classic I wanted were classic characters, some nods to the other movies, and depth of the Miss Piggy/Kermit relationship. Oh... and them not in some weird gimmick or theme film. We got that.

    But I can see what Duke's saying too... not so much that he's annoyed by criticism (even well thought out ones), but that he's kinda disappointed the fans aren't all where he is as far as the movie goes (though most of us are). It seems other than a tiny handful, people overall enjoyed this film, and most find it an improvement over the last few on some level. If everyone hated this film and felt it was a titanic let down (like a soul stealing betrayal of a let down), I'm sure this board would be a maudlin collection of complaints both well crafted and poorly though out. Heck, it's pretty much a strong 4th favorite as far as the Muppet Movies go for me (I refuse to touch the first 3... but this comes very close for me) I might even call it a second and tie all the first three together.

    1. (Tie) TMM, MTM, GMC
    2. The Muppets
    3. (Tie) VMX MTI
    4. MFS
    5. MCC
    6. MupOz
    Though I'm not counting LTS (it's not technically a movie to me), KSY (I haven't seen still), and Muppet Classics Theater (though if I did, that would barely be above MupOz, even though I tend to have found it enjoyable enough). Nor am I adding the Sesame Street films (though FTB would be the second place... or even tied with the first 3... EIG barely tied with MCC).
    Duke Remington likes this.
  14. Speed Tracer

    Speed Tracer Well-Known Member

    I turned it off the second I heard this exchange when the 80s Turtles were in jail:

    "Hey, where's our one phone call?"
    "I know who I'M calling!"
    (all of them) "PIZZA!"

    I'm pretty sure that's how everyone who doesn't remember that these were four characters with very layered personalities thinks of them.
  15. heralde

    heralde Well-Known Member

    Exactly! I mean it was basically trying to rewrite history. And frankly it's not like it made the 2003 turtles look any good. They just got annoying the way they kept scolding the other turtles, lol.
  16. Mo Frackle

    Mo Frackle Well-Known Member

    I usually think of LTS as simply a step back into the right direction.
  17. beaker

    beaker Well-Known Member

    I enjoyed both times I saw it, heck I liked it the second time more. I dont think hardly anyone on here is saying they didnt have a great fun time. I had an absolute wonderful time when I saw it.

    My issues come down to more, when I have time to think about it, where the film stands for me. I'll say this, I love the new film much more than GMC, MTI, MCC, KSY, VMX, and Oz if that helps:)

    I cant explain, after the huge word of mouth, why the film is now heading south fast at the box office.
  18. goldenstate5

    goldenstate5 Active Member

    I tried watching Oz the other night since the first time I saw it six years ago (which I mostly blocked out of my memory) and I couldn't get through the first fifteen minutes. It was awful, pure trash. The "gritty" music video, blatant sexploitation of Ashanti, and David Allan Grier mentioning that the Muppets are, "The most powerful puppets in the country!" Then finally the Muppets show up and the writing impossibly nosedives even further south.

    For now, I'm only relying on my vague, discarded memories. Piggy is a biker chick, Gonzo has a nipple ring and of course Ashanti ends up showing even more skin so she can be famous!

    Point is that I'm glad the Muppets are getting the better treatment that they deserve, but after Oz... can you really blame some people for being ambivalent?
    Duke Remington and heralde like this.
  19. DannyRWW

    DannyRWW Well-Known Member

    Interestingly the puppet comment didn't annoy me much... Have you ever seen Greg the Bunny...where Puppets are treated like lower class citizens. I never really had a problem with the Muppets being called puppets...its just that in their world a puppet is not being controlled by anyone its just that they are small and fuzzy and talking animals.... Now that being said there are so many things wrong with OZ. My kids like watching it but not our favorite Muppet movie by a long shot. Too much in it that makes me cringe.
  20. goldenstate5

    goldenstate5 Active Member

    But the fact is that in the Muppets world they aren't puppets, they're Muppets. They're seen as weird people, not puppets.

    This is the only time someone in an official Muppet production actively referred to them as puppets.
    Duke Remington likes this.

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