17 Things Kermit has done that are worse than living in a mansion.

[Speed Tracer]

It's too late and my eyes are too heavy to comment on all of these things directly, but I have really loved reading this conversation, you guys. Everyone makes valid points, no one is claiming one truth - everyone just cares about this so much, and has something to say about why they care.

One thing I will say - the Muppets are not characters. The Muppets are living, breathing entities. They can't be drawn the way the audience has come to know them, like Mickey or Donald or Goofy - they can only be themselves, and they, like human beings, have changed over time and will continue to change.

It's good to remember that, as that happens, there is a very large group of passionate, intelligent people who will always love them at their best and their worst. Like you do when you love someone.

 

[CensoredAlso]

One thing I will say - the Muppets are not characters. The Muppets are living, breathing entities. They can't be drawn the way the audience has come to know them, like Mickey or Donald or Goofy - they can only be themselves, and they, like human beings, have changed over time and will continue to change.

Well I don't agree that they aren't characters, in that I don't see characters as a bad thing. But to each their own. Still, even if they're not characters in the traditional sense, I don't want to watch a Kermit who has changed in the ways he has lately. Nor would I want kids to watch it, especially girls.

But yes as others have said we don't know what the new movie will be like, hopefully they did improve on that.

 

[Drtooth]

I've been thinking about this whole thing for days (yeah, yeah--I've ordered a life but they're out of stock) and finally decided to jump back in because of this one specific thing I want to say, and that is this: If you were Frank Oz (whom I admire and respect) and you had--in collusion with Jim Henson and a host of other amazing puppeteers--created one of the most memorable divas ever--how would you feel about the way she is treated now? Would you be happy to see Piggy portrayed as ignorant and rude, fat and romantically appalling?

Piggy on TMS might have spoken with a faux French accent, but it was her vulnerability and desperation to be thought chic and sophisticated shining through that made it charming. (THINK! REMEMBER that very sweet, very romantic dinner she and Kermit shared in TMM when they are BOTH pretending to be more sophisticated than they are?) She might have been teased about her weight, but she was unquestionably stunning and sexy. Kermit might have quailed at the thought of marriage, but when push came to shove--and it frequently did--he stood up and declared that Piggy was his girl, and that all those other guys could just shove off.

Even as late as IAVMMC, Kermit knows that Piggy has the star ability to draw the kind of crowd they need, and he doesn't want to see her hurt and disappointed romantically. When--exactly--did Piggy stop being her original, amazing, wonderful self and become the pork butt of every rude fat joke certain writers could think of? Think about that if you will.

When Frank was still doing Piggy, Kermit was respectful. When Frank was no longer there, it became open season from the frog down, and it's been too deliberate and too consistent to have not been some sort of official policy. Poor thing--no one has her back anymore, unless it's to hang a kick-me sign on it. The saddest part of this all--for me--is that most of the young fans see this as business as usual. Piggy? Oh--yeah, she's that embarrassing fat chic that likes Kermit. How little you know, if that's what you think.

I swear that part of that has to be blamed on the writers or whoever, they've been taking this in a very obvious state for years now. Every Kermit interview somehow has to have that reference to the caustic relationship... I really wonder. is it really the fault of Steve and Eric or is it the fault of Henson at the time, trying to artificially bring back a retro Muppet Show season 2 because that's what they think people like. That's a Flanderized version of those characters people remember. yet, I don't see that in actual Muppet projects. It was sort of present in VMX at the beginning when Kermit lost it and somehow in the Moulin Scrooge number, but it really seems that that subtlety to the relationship was brought back. Too bad there was no room for that in their experimental MOz casting. LTS is hard to judge because it feels like there's a whole middle of the movie missing.

It seems that this thing is forced upon public appearances and merchandise.

Now, I think Eric has done a terrific job with Frank's characters (moreso the Sesame Street ones because that's constantly in production), but there is a subtlety lost in Piggy's character that Eric hasn't been able to find yet. And it's no help that people only remember Hi YAAAAH Piggy.

However, this movie is being written by the masters of the relationship movie. Forgetting Sarah Marshal was a broad film about someone coming out of a wonderful relationship and how broken his heart and soul was when his long time girlfriend, who had a very positive influence on him at the beginning and how he dealt with it. Not like those cheap chickflicks where a modestly attractive woman has to choose between nasty idiot rich guy who her parents force her to set up with and someone played probably by Mathew MacCougnehey. Or "fat" girls finding love. And by fat I mean just under the at weight category (why do we need so many Bridget Jones movies). I have faith that they'll bring that great Muppet Movie Kermit/Piggy relationship back, where the only "Sheesh" is Kermit's Sheesh of "I love you a lot, but please reel in that enthusiasm a bit."

 

[Muppet fan 123]

Where did he get the money to live in a mansion I thought the Muppet Theatre was shut down and besides that even when it was still being used there was no money
By the way doesn't J.P.Gross own the Muppet Theatre? Does he sell it to Tex Richman in the new Muppet Movie? If anyone knows from the book or anything please tell me, for some reason this question has been bothering me since I ever heard of Tex Richman owning the Muppet Theatre

 

[Muppetfan44]

I think I do have to add one more thing, in order to be fair. Steve has a handicap that Jim never had to contend with--Steve has a boss. Jim WAS the boss, and--by default--Kermit got to be the boss, so whatever Kermit said was, well, the way it was. Steve never had that luxury, and it HAS to matter.....

Couldn't agree with you more...I think Steve has been severely constrained with what he can do with Kermit because of his "new bosses" from time and time and it has definitely showed- completely sympathize with Steve, he's a great performer and that has to be frustrating. I never associated any of kermit's new character flaws with Steve's work- he does the best within the constraints he is given and I think we would all agree that Steve is vital to keeping the Muppets alive the way they should be.

Later on, when Eric took over the role of Piggy--an ENORMOUS mantle (and if anyone makes a crack here I will HURT you, and THEN sic the penguins on you!), Steve had settled into Kermit, and it makes sense that the more experience character would take the lead in character interactions. Somewhere about this time, Kermit apparently decided that the former love of his life was more annoying than adorable and that having a serious relationship (forget the fact that they were actually married--everyone else seems to have forgotten) was apparently cramping his style as some sort of hip "playa." His interactions with her--both on the screen and in behind-the-scenes shots--became colored with insults and snarky comments. Let me say for the record that Jim's Kermit could be remarkably grouchy and sarcastic--sometimes he was downright mean to those who ran to him for reassurance, like Fozzie and Piggy--but at the end of the day, you knew that Kermit would eventually work it out with himself and come back, sheepish if not apologetic, and make things okay........

Yep, there were sometimes where I thought that Kermit could have been a little nicer, but you always somehow knew that no matter what he did, he always had genuine affection for the bear and pig that drove him crazy the most, and he could never hide it from anyone.

We got sarcasm or, well, maybe just immature jokes, lots of evidence that Kermit enjoyed those moments of cruelty and then...not much in reaction. For a while, it was as though Piggy didn't realize she was being dissed by the person--er, frog--that mattered more to her than any other, um, being on the planet. Those times did make me cringe because it put Piggy in the unhappy position of being the "faithful girlfriend" of someone who cheated on her and made crass comments behind her back. And it suddenly became--yuck--normal to imply that yes there was, um, that aspect of their relationship but nothing else. At this point, if Kermit was a regular guy, he'd have worked his way right off my Christmas card list. A guy who, um, enjoys the company of a girl, who takes her places as his date but then derides, insults and makes fun of behind her back--yeah, a real prince of a guy, if you catch my drift.
And can you imagine Piggy's hurt--and her NON-reaction to something like this? The Piggy I knew from TMS would have taken Kermit's head off. or simply found one of her many admirers to take her off his hands--perhaps both.........

I think this really broke my heart more than anything. I'm 25 so I didn't get to see the Muppet Show when it was actually on, but I watched vhs, dvd's, etc and I saw the way they were and when looking at recent work I became so frustrated. I could never understand, and a lot of times still don't, why if Kermit kept treating Piggy the way that he has for so long, who in their right mind would stay with him. I always sympathized with Piggy but also thought that the diva, supreme confident and talented role-model in her that I had as a child would never put up with it, but yet she always did and Kermit never changed...ugh it has been tearing at my heartstrings for so long!!! If this doesn't change soon.....well let's just hope that it changes!

In the midst of ALL the WILD excitement over the new movie, where everyone who has any inside information is just GUSHING with praise (for which I am very, VERY glad), the response is rather quiet when asked if the old romance we had come to take for granted in TMS and the subsequent movies (THINK! REMEMBER what a BIG ROLE the romance played in the first three movies!) will be present in the new movie..........

I think this is the thing that Disney is trying with all their might to keep under wraps until the movie comes out. I think the romantic dynamic between Kermit and Piggy is one of those things that is just so central to the success and vitality of the "reboot" of the Muppets. I also think that it's one of the things that Jason Segel really wanted to explore in the movie and he really doesn't want everyone to know how he plays it out until the movie comes out, which I think is the right way to go but like you Ru, I at times have my doubts about if they finally get this right for a change.

This is my last epic post on this subject today and in this thread. I have no wish to shanghai the thread to talk about something that most fans don't seem to care about, but I'm not going to give up hoping that I'm not alone.

Believe me, you are definitely not alone!!!

 

[Muppetfan44]

It's too late and my eyes are too heavy to comment on all of these things directly, but I have really loved reading this conversation, you guys. Everyone makes valid points, no one is claiming one truth - everyone just cares about this so much, and has something to say about why they care.

One thing I will say - the Muppets are not characters. The Muppets are living, breathing entities. They can't be drawn the way the audience has come to know them, like Mickey or Donald or Goofy - they can only be themselves, and they, like human beings, have changed over time and will continue to change.

It's good to remember that, as that happens, there is a very large group of passionate, intelligent people who will always love them at their best and their worst. Like you do when you love someone.

Thanks Speed Tracer! I love it when I get a chance to have these types of conversations and I have always loved and respected Ru for the passion that she and I share for the frog-pig romance!!

 

[Muppetfan44]

Where did he get the money to live in a mansion I thought the Muppet Theatre was shut down and besides that even when it was still being used there was no money
By the way doesn't J.P.Gross own the Muppet Theatre? Does he sell it to Tex Richman in the new Muppet Movie? If anyone knows from the book or anything please tell me, for some reason this question has been bothering me since I ever heard of Tex Richman owning the Muppet Theatre

I wouldn't worry about it. It gets explained in the junior novel and I'm sure it gets explained in the movie- it doesn't really play as big of a plot point that the press has been implying.