Is there Muppet continuity/canon?

[beaker]

Over the years I've heard people reference that this or that character had such and such happen to them on the Muppet show or in one of the movies. But then I seem to recall a few times when Muppet characters are interviewed on talk shows...well, they seem to make it clear that they are just actors. Gonzo isn't really an alien. Kermit and Piggy didnt get married. That which happens in any of the films, perhaps even the show itself might not be considered canon per se...since they acknowledge they are just actors.

Real canon to me is seeing Kermit, Pepe, Piggy, etc on daytime or late night talk shows.

So what do you guys think? And if the Muppet Show characters are simply acting...does this mean the Fraggle Rock characters
are merely actors(as seen in the "Fraggles Look For Jobs" wrap up special in 1986), or that the Sesame characters live on "the street"...but perhaps are unwitting actors in a kid's show?

And as much as I *love* Muppet Babies, it's hard to accept this as canon...as much as they try to in the nixed Muppet Family Christmas home movies scene. However in TMTM it seems clear that the "Muppet Babies" thing is all fantasy and wishful thinking on the part of piggy.

What exactly counts as canon, if Kermit is on a talk show saying
it's all just acting on tv and film and not really what happened(ie: like Piggy and Kermit being married)

 

[Drtooth]

No.


Canon is another word I'm starting to dislike. Fan nerds (of anything) want to have everything fit together and questions when it doesn't. It works fine for stuff with ambitious worlds and creations behind it like Star Wars... but it never really applies to cartoons. And the Muppets have that sort of cartoon feel of episodic continuity... which is basically NO continuity or very lose connecting continuity in the basis of a single series or movie.

Fraggle Rock is a far more ambitious world than the Muppets, and their continuity is very strong. But things vary from movie to movie with the Muppets... the only time continuity in any movie was brought up is when they referenced Doc Hoppers in VMX. The movie never followed the show, the show never followed the movie (though they did sing a couple songs or at least reference them in later episodes)... and Muppet babies doesn't factor into anything, as it was a dream in MTM, which was an alternate tale of their lives anyway, since they were all apparently out of school and looking for work on Broadway, when, if there was continuity, they became stars in Hollywood. And we all know most of them got their start in England.

So basically NOTHING adds up, and they're just actors. That's the only way to describe it if you want canon. I could care less because continuity in characters like that ruins the magic. There's no continuity with Bugs Bunny or Mickey Mouse (though, Donald Duck/Scrooge/Duck family comics have a fair amount of continuity), and it works just fine with them.

 

[Slackbot]

I agree with Drtooth, there is no identifiable canon with the Muppets. There are so many contradictions and conflicts, there's just no way to resolve them all. The closest you can do is work out themes that run through them all, like Piggy pursuing Kermit.

That said, I have my personal theory on canon, which I use just for fanfic purposes: The Muppets are performers. TMS is true canon, as we actually saw what was going on for real both onstage and offstage. After that, the movies, other shows, etc. are all acts. They may be completely fanciful, or they may have been based on their "real lives," but in all cases what we saw were performances, not the actual events. This approach allows one to pick and choose among all the various elements for one's own version of the canon, heh heh.

 

[BobThePizzaBoy]

I would say there is a small, small realm of continuity in the Muppet universe consisting of the "actual" events of The Muppet Movie, The Muppet Show, It's a Very Merry Muppet Chirstmas Movie and maybe Muppets Tonight and MuppeTelevision. But everything other than that is just it's own world.

 

[beaker]

So basically NOTHING adds up, and they're just actors. That's the only way to describe it if you want canon. I could care less because continuity in characters like that ruins the magic. There's no continuity with Bugs Bunny or Mickey Mouse (though, Donald Duck/Scrooge/Duck family comics have a fair amount of continuity), and it works just fine with them.

Its interesting because when Fraggles appear outside of the Fraggle world...such as the 1993 appearance on good morning america, or Red Fraggle's recent appearances...the characters are portrayed as realy being from Fraggle Rock and thus not merely actors. Which would mean the camera that happens to catch their world would be like the camera in The Office or other mockumentary type sitcoms.

Some things I do believe are "canon". We know Kermit and Piggy have had an off again on again relationship, and are still "together" based upon their Christmas period appearance on The Today Show last year. We know Kermit did grow up and come from the swamp. We know Pepe is from Spain.

Given the penguins are seen in so many Muppet productions doing odd jobs(theyre the camera operators on Animal Show, theyre seen in Mopatop, etc) penguins could be considered kind of general for hire muppets.

Of course another question, in light of more recent legal arrangements, is what counts as a Muppet?

I myself consider Muppets proper(Sam and Friends and 60's commercials, 70's tv specials to Muppet Show and beyond),
Sesame Street, Fraggle Rock, Bear in the Big Blue House, Big Bag, Animal Jam, Mopatop, Hoobs, etc all part of the Muppets universe. I'd have to say, even despite their very adult potty mouths, all of the Henson Alternative brand characters too given that many had been previously used in official Muppet productions. Heck, even Dinosaurs...despite my belief that it was strictly fantasy/creature shop related, had several Muppet and Fraggle cameos...made me wonder if it was Muppet universe related.

To me the general connection is that Muppets all come together when they need to, like at the end of the Muppet Movie, or the Muppet Family Christmas special.

 

[muppetperson]

I think it is a bit of both-acting and biographic.And when something biographic doesnt work, such as Kermit and Piggy getting married, then they can cover up by saying they are acting.To me, they are only really acting when they are not being themselves, such as in Muppet Treasure Island, Muppets Wizard of Oz and Muppet Christmas Carol.

 

[Drtooth]

I love how they made Zoot Jewish in LTS. I believe Baby Bear is also Jewish. Somethings I dont like, how in that one special they implied Rosita(or maybe it was Elmo's dad, I forget) got injured fighting in Iraq. Definitely dont think JH would approve of that.

I still don't get Baby Bear being Jewish, other than the fact it's because the puppeteer is. Seems like Telly's the obvious choice. Not so much because of the Woody Allen stereotype... just... the fact he has a cousin Izzy. Izzy sounds like a very Jewish name, but I digress.

I also do NOT like the idea that ANY Muppet would fight in any actual real life war. A fictitious cartoony war (they did that once in either JHH or MT... I forget which... I know they had one on Fraggle Rock) fine... but I'd tend to think that the Muppets, all sharing the same spirit and heart as Kermit, would rather spread joy and laughter and fun than blow up little kids and mothers to shake up a few Boogiemen.

But back to the idea of the canon...

The sure fire way you can TELL MB isn't canon? This old Muppets Tonight skit

 

[RedPiggy]

I consider them having an "open" canon. They have themes that keep cropping back up, but the details tend to depend on who's talking. Anyone who reads my fanfics knows I LOVE outlining a canon for the Muppetverse. I believe that just about everyone aside from people/whatnots/whatever that are just walking down the street or something are actors for the show or movie being taped. Even dinosaurs broke the fourth wall every once in awhile.

While it begs the question how dinosaurs exist in the modern world, I feel even Dinosaurs is their SPIN on the story of how they acted. I feel they are modern actors who are perfectly aware they are mocking sitcom issues and using (in part) the popularity of Jurassic Park to get people to watch. I think they agreed to do the show to use the purported story of their demise to teach humans a lesson. While it sounds like at least three people voiced Gunge, I like to think they actually hired Gunge himself to flesh out the "ancient animals" cast, but the only way Marjory would agree to it is if Gunge is never truly eaten.

I think there might be elements of Muppet Babies that might be true (especially since I've noticed the main characters seem to be letting some of their Babies personality slip every now and again, like Scooter and a laptop or Gonzo's alien status or Animal's bunny thing. It's clear that the show as created is Piggy's idea. I like to think that Piggy sponsored the cartoon with the help of the other Muppets to flesh out their childhoods, but harp on using imaginations in every episode to hammer the truth down people's throats that it's made up. Still, I think it a sin that Skeeter can't be a real Muppet yet. They need to fix that in the movie, even if it's just a "pause the dvd and zoom in to see it" cameo. Since the babies aren't technically babies with the exception of Animal and Robin, I like to think that the characters were born wherever they said they were, but by the time they were almost school-aged, they were put in the care of some sort of day care center while their parents tried to get jobs in the big city. It just simply can't happen the way MB presents it, or Robin would just be a couple years younger than Kermit and Janice would be older than Rowlf. I find that hard to swallow.

 

[Drtooth]

I think there might be elements of Muppet Babies that might be true (especially since I've noticed the main characters seem to be letting some of their Babies personality slip every now and again, like Scooter and a laptop or Gonzo's alien status or Animal's bunny thing. It's clear that the show as created is Piggy's idea. I like to think that Piggy sponsored the cartoon with the help of the other Muppets to flesh out their childhoods, but harp on using imaginations in every episode to hammer the truth down people's throats that it's made up. Still, I think it a sin that Skeeter can't be a real Muppet yet. They need to fix that in the movie, even if it's just a "pause the dvd and zoom in to see it" cameo. Since the babies aren't technically babies with the exception of Animal and Robin, I like to think that the characters were born wherever they said they were, but by the time they were almost school-aged, they were put in the care of some sort of day care center while their parents tried to get jobs in the big city. It just simply can't happen the way MB presents it, or Robin would just be a couple years younger than Kermit and Janice would be older than Rowlf. I find that hard to swallow.

Muppet Babies is tricky, but I really think the writers were pretty darn close with adapting most of the character personalities to make them much younger. Fozzie's jokes at points made no sense and were funny to him. A LOT of kids are like that. I was. And it was just very odd that they would tune into Gonzo's alien future in that show... but then again, he always had an air of something intergalactic or supernatural about him. I don't fully agree with Scooter being a computer nerd (comic nerd, maybe) but I can see it... it was basically one of the trope characteristics to make him the nerdy one because he has glasses... Bean I disagree with. he seems a LOT too depressed. Maybe he was trying to find his confidence in his cuteness?

Now, I absolutely HATE Muppet Kids, though. Scooter not being able to read? He had a computer when he was a toddler, I think he can do a little more than read. Gonzo having parents that somehow were only around then?

As for Skeeter...Well, we all know what happened with the cartoon character Harely Quinn, right? She was so popular in the cartoon series that she was retroactively ushered in to the comic books' continuity. And I bet if Saban didn't have such tight regulations about original characters created for The Tick animated series, we would have seen some of those guys too. Skeeter isn't as recognized to the creators the same way as Harley was for hers. It would have really been something to have her used in MT, though... they need an assistant, Scooter's apparently doing something else with his life now, and they somehow get in contact with Skeeter, who's not half as eager or good at her job as her brother. She acts sort of like a slacker, and basically gets fired at the end of the episode, saying "Thanks! I was gonna quit anyway!"

Though, I do think Roger did a humongous job perfectly crafting her personality as a busy body who screws things up in the comic book version.

 

[dwmckim]

My thoughts...

I think people are more apt to be concerned with continuity/canon when the overall project is that of a continuing story with a logical progression. This could be a series of movies, a television show that picks up the story each week (the episodes have to be shown in a basic order instead of random), comic books, etc.

The Muppets are more among those comedy troupes like cartoons or Three Stooges where you've got the basic characters but they're seen in different situations/settings and each individual short doesn't necessarily have to do with any of their others. They did after all originate with short five minute pieces and variety show appearances.

However as the Muppets have had regular television shows and have been a major entertainment group, you have the characters grow and change. Plus they have an element that allows them a good in-between spot in that their nature is that they are a group of performers. Most of their projects carry similar theme of trying to put on a show/project and goofing up or facing challenges. So you've got all the "onstage stuff" which includes not only acts on TMS, JHH, MT! but also the movies - and you've got the backstage stuff - obviously the backstage segments of the shows but also the moments in the movies where they break character and tip that they're making a movie. These can include variety show interviews, dvd commentaries, documentaries but also the films themselves: MCC/MTI/MWOO are obviously the Muppets acting parts but there's also Kermit/Piggy's duckpond argument in GMC and TMM had the whole framing sequence of watching the movie they made (where Robin asks if it's really their backstory to which Kermit gives a marvelous answer "Well, it's sort of apporoximately how it happened"

I tend to think all the accumulated "behind the scenes" moments as canon - the main story in GMC is not their backstory but a situation for making a movie, but the fourth wall moments are included.