Animation Conversation

[Drtooth]

Here's something that's been bothering me for a LONG time, and I just had it to here at this point.

By now, you ALL know my worldly view of cartoons new and old, from different countries, and artistic stuff that no one could ever see on television.

All too many times on youtube I see the same idiotic rant and whining by couch potatoes, afraid of how old they really are, who do NOTHING but whine about how newer animation is junk. Even if the cartoon they're commenting on as being "great nostalgia" is junk in and of itself.

As someone who's been trying to break into animation, even indie stuff no one's ever going to watch, I find that old rant not only stale and lacking in independent thought, but a slap in the face to every aspiring animator and everyone who works hard in the business trying to get their vision out there.

I always say there's ALWAYS something out there. There's something for everybody if they know where to look, from any country they could bother to find. It may take forever to find it, but there's ALWAYS something if you look hard enough.

Rest assured, this isn't an artistic rant I'm sick of... there are lots of artistic aesthetics in everything to point out... these are basically people set in their ways watching old shows that glorify stuff from their childhood, no matter if that stuff was actually quite terrible. Especially those who romanticize about the 70's, which was a pretty dark time for animation (HB and Filmation's band cartoon over-saturation.... yuckka).

 

[D'Snowth]

Well, my standpoint on that is this - unlike the past generation of cartoons and animation, especially as far as TV shows and specials are concerned, there's just not a lot of INTELLIGENT writing in cartoons now as there was then.

For me, the most important aspect of any successful program, animated or not, is the writing; the writing for many shows back in the day, while may be outlandish at times, was able to capture the attention of the entire family without having to worry about being too inappropriate for the children watching, but not so watered down that the parents wouldn't watch as well. Like Rocky and Bullwinkle for example, the gags and puns would fly over the kids heads and make the parents laugh, while the kids would laugh at the absurdity of Bullwinkle getting his antlers stuck in a doorway or so. Courage the Cowardly Dog, while a more recent cartoon (though not TOO recent) also had levels of undertones to them that kids wouldn't necessarily pick up on, but the parents would (ala "The Mask" episode with its lesbian undertones).

The problem that I see with a lot of cartoons today is that they're either targeted specifically at kids, or specifically at adults, and when that happens, there's just not a lot of "intelligent" content that goes on. With cartoons aimed specifically at kids, the antics are so watered down, that it's basically nothing but a menagerie of braindead idiots doing idiotic things, which makes for major absurdity that kids would probably laugh at and nothing else (I still says SpongeBob is a prime example of this); then with cartoons aimed specifically at adults, it's basically a contest within its self like "Let's see how far we can push the envelope THIS week on what we can get away with".

There's no "meeting of the minds" anymore, I don't think. Even in live action television... again, basically the line's been divided into the kids only and adults only categories. It seems like really the only person who tries to reach both audiences is Weird Al, who has said that he always tries to make sure that his work and his music is acceptable for all ages to enjoy, and that if he does ever get a little edgy, that it's never distasteful and raunchy.

My work is mostly the same way, and I'm not exactly sure how you plan to tackle this Drtooth, but in all honesty, I can definitely see successful projects coming from you... just remember the one golden rule of this industry that Walt Disney himself preached (even to Sid and Marty Krofft) - NEVER SELL ANYTHING THAT YOU CREATE.

 

[Drtooth]

Well, my standpoint on that is this - unlike the past generation of cartoons and animation, especially as far as TV shows and specials are concerned, there's just not a lot of INTELLIGENT writing in cartoons now as there was then.

For me, the most important aspect of any successful program, animated or not, is the writing; the writing for many shows back in the day, while may be outlandish at times, was able to capture the attention of the entire family without having to worry about being too inappropriate for the children watching, but not so watered down that the parents wouldn't watch as well. Like Rocky and Bullwinkle for example, the gags and puns would fly over the kids heads and make the parents laugh, while the kids would laugh at the absurdity of Bullwinkle getting his antlers stuck in a doorway or so. Courage the Cowardly Dog, while a more recent cartoon (though not TOO recent) also had levels of undertones to them that kids wouldn't necessarily pick up on, but the parents would (ala "The Mask" episode with its lesbian undertones).

I see what you're getting at, and while I don't disagree or really agree, I'm gonna have to meet you in the middle. It seems that the intelligent writing (and this is how counter intuitive things are) is almost exclusive to action cartoons now. And I have to say, I adore Spectacular Spider-Man (one of the best, if not the best, tellings of the character I've seen in any non-comic form). and I hear nothing but good things about Wolverine and the X-men (comparing to the 1990's series, more people tend to flock to the new one... and I thought the 90's series was groundbreaking). And even the Batman Brave and the Bold has the air of the classic Super Friends/1960's animated Batman series, but with the sensibilities of a more serious cartoon. Plus, what they do to Aquaman makes him a interesting character.

However, I don't discount silly cartoons. To quote Roger Rabbit, "We toons may act idiotic, but we're not stupid." I know you're not a Spongebob fan, and I'm guessing Chower isn't your thing. But sometimes letting cartoonists and writers run wild is just as good as a well thought out allusion or reference. Look at the Daffy cartoon, "Duck Amok" for example. That was an instance of an animator running wild and having fun with the subject matter... stuff like that may not look calculated, but I assure you, it is.

That said, That "Never Never Never" episode of Arthur, which I didn't like at first and made no sense to me became one of my favorite episodes when my sister told me it was all an allusion to King Lear. Proof there is intelligent writing out there to say the least. You just have to look in unexpected places.

then with cartoons aimed specifically at adults, it's basically a contest within its self like "Let's see how far we can push the envelope THIS week on what we can get away with".

Adult Cartoons I agree with completely. And I blame that on Adult Swim basically just copying itself ad nauseum. Now, I LOVE stuff like Harvey Birdman, Space Ghost and stuff like that that evolved out of very flat 60's Hanna Barbera action cartoons... but that era is gone. Everything either tries to be as weird as possible (and not the carefully constructed weirdness Chowder or 2 Stupid Dogs would share) or everything has to resemble late Family Guy and Robot Chicken (tiresome 80's references, and once shocking, now tame and repetitive jokes). And not even in a clever way, either. 10000 jokes a minute, and only 1 laugh, I say. I really wish they'd let Ralph Bakshi or even some of their own CN alumni make an adult cartoon... people who KNOW how it's done.

My work is mostly the same way, and I'm not exactly sure how you plan to tackle this Drtooth, but in all honesty, I can definitely see successful projects coming from you... just remember the one golden rule of this industry that Walt Disney himself preached (even to Sid and Marty Krofft) - NEVER SELL ANYTHING THAT YOU CREATE.

Heh... sad thing is, you get better creative control of your own characters if someone ELSE sells your show. Look at TMNT. Until Eastman sold his share to Laird, who would then sell his ownership to Nick, they held the rights to all the characters. That means that they could easily take the idea somewhere else over and over. The story of the Mighty Mouse New Adventures is that Ralph Bakshi was pitching all these original shows that got shot down and said "I own Mighty Mouse" at a time when CBS didn't even know they held the rights. And it was groundbreaking at the time. So it really isn't wise to sell your own stuff... get someone else to do it, or sell someone else's stuff.

But my point is, there is ALWAYS something out there. Even if it's a preschool show, or not of this country (and I don't just mean Japan... Canada and France have rich animation histories). And don't just look to TV... internet... theatrical animations... good stuff is out there. Just grab your pith helmet and pick ax and search!

 

[D'Snowth]

I see what you're getting at, and while I don't disagree or really agree, I'm gonna have to meet you in the middle.

That's fine. This is what this is all about,

I know you're not a Spongebob fan, and I'm guessing Chower isn't your thing. But sometimes letting cartoonists and writers run wild is just as good as a well thought out allusion or reference. Look at the Daffy cartoon, "Duck Amok" for example. That was an instance of an animator running wild and having fun with the subject matter... stuff like that may not look calculated, but I assure you, it is.

I have to be honest, I wasn't even sure WHAT Chowder was supposed to be (both the character and the show) from the previews and commercials I saw... I remember even my mom and I both looking at each other like "***" when a commercial came on. Funnily enough, at first, something about the style reminded me of Maxwell Atoms and Billy and Mandy, but when I realized it wasn't him, I clearly saw a difference afterwards.

And yes, I fondly remember "Duck Amok", I did enjoy that one, though I wasn't necessarily talking about animators or writers running wild, but I see where you're coming from about that. I'm even reminded of that episode of Cow and Chicken where Weasel and Baboon are detectives called in to look into the disappearances of characters from the show, and discovering such clues as piles of eraser bits, Teacher suddenly only being half there, Flem and Earl having lost their paints, etc.

That said, That "Never Never Never" episode of Arthur, which I didn't like at first and made no sense to me became one of my favorite episodes when my sister told me it was all an allusion to King Lear. Proof there is intelligent writing out there to say the least. You just have to look in unexpected places.

I don't recall that episode specifically, but I do remember you speaking of it... though as I've said, Arthur seems to be suffering as well, while it's remarkable that such shows can stand the test of time for a long time, sometimes dragging something out for "too long" can have its disadvantages. Again, the writing on the show has a "tired" feeling to it - certain scenarios are being repeated, background characters are becoming regulars, other new characters are being brought in while new life is given to old ones (Pal, Kate, Emily, etc), and we have episodes tackling more serious issues, ala "The Great MacGrady". Not surprisingly, some idiot at IMDb once said that the show seriously needs to do a molestation episode, and while I actually could imagine possible scenarios and situations in which that issue could be tackled in a smart, goodhearted way that would send out a message to both the kids and the parents, it would be met with uproars.

Adult Cartoons I agree with completely. And I blame that on Adult Swim basically just copying itself ad nauseum. Now, I LOVE stuff like Harvey Birdman, Space Ghost and stuff like that that evolved out of very flat 60's Hanna Barbera action cartoons... but that era is gone. Everything either tries to be as weird as possible (and not the carefully constructed weirdness Chowder or 2 Stupid Dogs would share) or everything has to resemble late Family Guy and Robot Chicken (tiresome 80's references, and once shocking, now tame and repetitive jokes). And not even in a clever way, either. 10000 jokes a minute, and only 1 laugh, I say. I really wish they'd let Ralph Bakshi or even some of their own CN alumni make an adult cartoon... people who KNOW how it's done.

Yes, exactly.

But my point is, there is ALWAYS something out there. Even if it's a preschool show, or not of this country (and I don't just mean Japan... Canada and France have rich animation histories). And don't just look to TV... internet... theatrical animations... good stuff is out there. Just grab your pith helmet and pick ax and search!

Exactly, I have to agree with that, sometimes they can be few and far between, but they're out there.

 

[Drtooth]

That's fine. This is what this is all about, I have to be honest, I wasn't even sure WHAT Chowder was supposed to be (both the character and the show) from the previews and commercials I saw... I remember even my mom and I both looking at each other like "***" when a commercial came on. Funnily enough, at first, something about the style reminded me of Maxwell Atoms and Billy and Mandy, but when I realized it wasn't him, I clearly saw a difference afterwards.

Technically, you WERE right when you thought that Chowder looked similar to B&M... while Maxwell Atoms doesn't work on it (His contract expired, and was never renewed... otherwise the network would have had Underfist on it's schedule) C. H. Greenblatt actually created the show (I hope I got his name right) and he was part of the Billy and Mandy staff. And the dude's a HUGE Muppet Fan if that twists your arm to tune in. One episode, you can even spot a Doozer.

 

[Xerus]

When I watched those Saturday Morning preview shows as a kid, I would get excited about what I was going to see thinking it will be great like Yogi's Space Race, Pac Man, the Wuzzles, Darkwing Duck, and Animaniacs. And I've been pleased with what I saw and got disappointed when they were canceled. But something else always came that was just as good.

Of course, there were some preview shows that I would hoped be good but turned out to be disappointments when they finally came to TV.

But sometimes, the best cartoons come your way when you're not expecting them. Like when I first heard about The Attack of the Killer Tomatoes cartoons, I wasn't really interested. But later, I saw scenes of the show when I changed the channel during commercial time on other shows and I decided, this might be worth checking out. And after four months since it aired, I became a fan of the Killer Tomatoes cartoons.

Recently on youtube, I discovered the theme song to a Canadian cartoon from 1990 called CLYDE that looked really neat and I'm hoping one day, I'll get to see this interesting series.

Also, when I read about the history of animation in books, I discovered old cartoons from the past that sounded interesting. Here Comes the Grump sounded cool and it aired before I was born. Thankfully, Grump came on DVD and I was able to enjoy a cartoon from the past which seemed new to me.

Right now, I'm seeing previews of a new CN cartoon called Adventure Time. And I'm wondering if I'll like it or not when it finally airs.

 

[Drtooth]

I feel that it's only right to bump this thread, since we had this same conversation a while ago on another thread, and it needs to be brought back up.

Again, I'm absolutely dismayed and disappointed that every so called cartoon fan basically whines about how "terrible" new cartoons are without sharing the concern that there is an utterly appalling lack of cartoons on television. And I for one am sick of the "TV is dying" excuse.

Now, I've said it before... the rise of live action tween pop shows came at a bad time, wounding an already sickly animal. And we all know my other rants well by now. But I just realized something.

They can't profit on cartoons without making merchandise. Now, toys are getting too expensive to sell, putting them on junk food is likening them to Joe Camel (because as we all know, junk food is apparently a synonym for mother's milk ) and that same reason bars certain shows from kid's meal toys. As for just merchandise... unless it's a preschool show, a movie, a comic book, a movie based on a toy line, a movie based off a comic book, or a movie based off a comic book based off a toy line, they're out of luck.

I HAVE seen strides, though. Disney is aggressively marketing Phineas and Ferb, and for the first time, I'm actually seeing action figures based on a cartoon series that's ONLY a cartoon series. I haven't seen that since the impossible to find Mattel CN line up (proudly bought Ed of Ed, Edd, n' Eddy sitting on a toilet-mobile when KB went under... wish I got the rest of the set). Which is great, even though there's talk that season 3 will be its last due to inane production caps.

Which brings me to another point, it used to be that if your show went on 5 seasons (and subsequently reran), you were a hit... even when you had a production cap of 65 episodes. Now, you're lucky to last 2 seasons if you're really really popular.

 

[Drtooth]

I really didn't know where to put this, but I discovered it via youtube and felt the need to share. So I'm digging up this old thread I started just for this.

I give you "Planet Patrol"

I really like 1960's TV cartoons. They have a certain charm to them before the parental groups (A.C.T. mostly) pestered the networks into the tame, personality devoid shows of the 70's. Bullwinkle, George of the Jungle, The Flintstones, The Jetsons, and... aw heck, a huge swatch of HB's output in the era are some my favorite cartoons of all time. The animation and character design here is pretty good. Considering it's a pilot the animation's probably got a bigger budget, though. But there's one thing that kinda bugs me about it.

It's wildly generic.

I wouldn't say it's as bad as, say, a 1990's show trying to pander with "Extreme" in the title (Ghostbusters not withstanding, though I hate the title). But we all know about the 1960's Space Race fad, if not from history than from Toy Story 2. And this show kinda treads well worn 1960's animation tropes, especially since most 1960's cartoons took their characters to outer space at some point. Heck, the main character's name is Rocky, and his friend has a deep, dimwitted voice. The villain is pretty much Beany and Cecil's Dishonest John in a Ming the Merciless costume with a funny voice. I do like the running gag about not fastening the seat belt, kinda has a Fairly Oddparents vibe to it, retrospectively. it's a good cartoon, don't get me wrong, but the fact that it's basically a mish mash of Hanna Barbera tropes (Ruff and Reddy especially), Rocky and Bullwinkle (minus the fast paced humor and eventual subversiveness), and Beany and Cecil, even unintentionally, made this series nothing special, and I feel that's why it was passed up.

 

[mr3urious]

Disney XD has a new series called Future-Worm!, and watching the first episode, I kinda dig it. I didn't get immediately hooked like I did with Star Vs. or Wander, but its premise of a boy and his bearded worm going on time-traveling adventures together certainly has more legs to stand on compared to that giant fart Pickle & Peanut (which unfortunately got renewed for a 2nd season). It's from the creator of a highly underrated IFC adult animated series called Out There, which was unfortunately cut short after 10 episodes.

FW has much of the same offbeat tone as that show, but with an expanded length from the 4 shorts that started it off, there should be a lot more plot to work with. I especially loved how they got Neil DeGrasse Tyson to do some Adam Westing in the episode I watched.

 

[Drtooth]

I have to check that out. I was on the fence about it, but it does look a lot better than Kid's Lucas Bros. Pickle and Peanut. I don't so much hate the show as just wonder why this is on Disney when it feels at least like a minor Nickelodeon series or Cartoon Network series from 2010 that didn't last a full season. Though I did dig the 90's Adventure Bear episode.