The Muppets Episode 4 - Pig Out

[WebMistressGina]

I can see and respect where you are coming from, however I respectfully disagree with your analysis on Kermit in this series.

While the show has a long way to go before it finally hits its stride, we've already seen fair examples of Kermit trying to walk the line between 'Boss Kermit' and 'Friend Kermit', especially when Piggy and Fozzie are concerned.

Also consider:

At San Diego Comic Con, Bill Prady stated that 'Kermit's fatal flaw is that he has hired his friends. His weakness is that he cares.'

You know, I think you've put this perfectly and maybe that's one of the issues this show has. In our previous Muppet stories, Kermit's balancing act at being both boss and friend usually went more friend than boss. Think about it - In TMS, he really did try his best to be the boss, but more times than anything, he'd relent. When he did crack down and be the boss, it caused so much tension, it took the entire troupe to fix it.

I'm particularly thinking of the episode where he fired Piggy, which was probably more personal than professional (though if I remember correctly, Piggy should've gotten a suspension).

Even in the first three movies and the latest two - everyone clearly sees Kermit is the boss (even Piggy), but it's so very clear that Kermit doesn't want to be the boss. His rally speeches to get everyone onboard isn't because he's a good boss, it's because he's a good friend.

Role reverse that in M11 where Kermit makes the executive decision that they need to do a show, with or without Piggy, but it's clear to him, to the others, and to us that they need Piggy, not just because she's a fan favorite, but their group dynamic doesn't work without her.

And as we saw in MMW, that dynamic doesn't work without Kermit. The one time Boss Frog trumped Friend Kermit, it lead to disaster - I refuse to think that no one realized that Constantine was Kermit because that would make them not only horrible employees, but horrible friends. I would rather think that, with a 'new, relaxed' Kermit, they could do - and did - want they wanted. I equated as a week with a substitute teacher who pretty much says "don't care what you do, just leave me out of it".

I think this new show is really pushing more towards Boss Frog and only at the very end, do we get Friend Kermit and, as someone who HAS been the boss to a friend that was a co-worker, straddling that line is hard and in real life, in the work place, you're going to be more boss than friend. You have to be; you're running a business and your business will fail if you don't run it.

The problem with this 'real life' formula - where we see more Boss Frog - is that it works against Kermit's character and nature. Aunt Ru is right - Kermit is a reluctant leader, but will step to the plate when he has to; this show kinda shows him overcorrecting and hitting home the idea that he's the typical tyrannical, manipulative boss that we all hate to go work for.

The problem is...it's Kermit. Everyone loves Kermit. Can he be a manipulator and petty? Absolutely and we've seen it before, but he does uses it for good, not evil and in this show, sometimes he strays a little too evil too quick. Getting Piggy's ego to show in Hostile Makeover I thought was Kermit being both boss and friend because he knows Piggy and the quickest way to get her back to being herself was to hit the button that would work; that's Kermit using friend knowledge to work for him in business.

 

[Daffyfan4ever]

All they need is plots A and B. Get rid of C.

Yeah. I think you're right there. A lot of eps have two to three plots which they seem to have to rush to resolve. Most sitcoms do just have A and B plots which seem to work out much better.

I liked Ladywarrior's comment on IVAMICMUM or whatever as well, again Piggy admitting that she loved all the Muppets in that one was a sweet moment, but unfortunately she was sort of 'flanderized' as most fans call it after that one. Sad.

 

[Ladywarrior]

I mean in most everything Piggy is in with other muppets she might act snooty but she DOES CARE about the other muppets. What episode 4 did show was that she does in fact ant to hang out with the other muppets but doesn't know how to do it due to her built up snobbishness. The fact when she is with them they have a lot of fun proves she cares but most of the time on the show she acts very petty and it bothers me greatly.
Also the thing with kermit and piggy's relationship lately bugs me too. I mean he's said she was beautiful and really does love her a lot. Yeah the two like to trade snide comments but in the past it made me wonder if they did it to each other in good fun and if kermit went too far Piggy would let him know with a karate chop! XD
Sneaky kermit feels weird. if sneaky kermit suddenly winds up being constantine who actually figured out how to imitate Kermit properly it would make more sense though it would be VERY weird. XD

 

[CensoredAlso]

I mean in most everything Piggy is in with other muppets she might act snooty but she DOES CARE about the other muppets.

Muppets Take Manhattan showed that very well in little ways, like when Piggy says, "Gonzo, is Camilla alright?" and "Janice, everybody, I'm glad to see you too..." She's not someone who would forget their names. Now granted MTM is one of the most sentimental Muppet projects ever, but it's not mindlessly sappy.

 

[Duke Remington]

I am the oldest fan on this board right now. I watched the original show, and I watch the reruns before many of you were born. It was never a children show. Never.
There's not been a thing that came out with the muppets that I haven't watched and didn't support. I have t-shirts older than most of you.
I have always been against "mean" Kermit. I don't mean snarky, sarcastic Kermit, who made an OCCASIONAL appearance on TMS. I mean the rude, obnoxious, fat-pig joking Kermit that showed up around the time that Muppets Tonight came out. But I watched that, too. (If you read my fanfiction you'll know that I include characters from every incarnation.)
I'm not prudish. Nope. Not me. (Again, look at my fanfiction.)
I am a fan, but just like I don't like everything my own children do, I don't have to like everything the characters do to be a fan.
I am sad that Jim is gone. But I have not said that the Muppets could not, or should not go on without him. Bless those stalwart muppeteers for doing their best for us, regardless of the script! I have been a staunch supporter and purchaser of all the things that they have done. (I also have mugs older than most of you.)
My main objection to the show can be summed up in the following: Just give me a show worth watching and people it with characters that act like themselves.
In a way, it's very insulting for the writers to assume that--just because these are puppets instead of people that we won't notice if they don't act like themselves. (When Disney took over, they initially tried to do character appearances with puppeteers that were NOT the actual characters' puppeteers. They didn't think anyone would care. We cared.)
I have not recommended that anybody else stop watching, and I allowed myself to be persuaded into watching again when I thought I was done watching mean Kermit be abusive and insulting and manipulative to Piggy. When I watched again, a sweeter side of Kermit emerged--for Fozzie. He's still being a jerk to Piggy, but the old Kermit might be in there somewhere. And no, I don't think Jim has to be there for the old Kerment to appear. When I say "old Kermit," I'll take the Kermit that we saw in The Muppets, who finally came roaring back, saved his theater, reunited his friends, and professed his love for Miss Piggy--all the while entertaining us with songs and skits.

The question is: Why on earth can't I have that?

It was on the strength of that that the muppets came back. When MMW came out, Disney had wrestled it out of the hands of fans (large and small) and THEIR big, original idea was to trot out a mixture of the same old tired stuff--a Kermit-Piggy will-they-or-won't-they wedding (good grief--they're already married!!)--and some new, stupid stuff, like Kermit getting replaced by an imposter and having NO ONE notice except the one guy who doesn't know him as well as all of the others.
It really shouldn't surprise us that--duh--Disney STILL doesn't know the characters.

Fix the characterizations (which could probably be solved by giving the muppeteers their heads--or rather their hands.) and have someone who knows the muppets write funny things for them. (You can bet darn sure that Bill Party wouldn't let just any script get slapped onto the Big Bang theory cast--those characters have particular characteristics that make them THEM. Don't our guys deserve the same respect?

I'm watching. I'm not happy, but I'm watching, and mis-characterizing fans like me doesn't make new fans appear. It takes a good show to do that. They should probably get right on that.

You're still completely wrong and waaaaaaay too negative for your own good, Auntie Ru.

Besides, Kermit has been mean in the past. Even on The Muppet Show, like in the Lena Horne episode ("sometimes you have to be ruthless, merciless and cruel").

Remember what JimandFrank said and also remember that he show is only 4 episodes in, so please stop being sad and start being happy and loving this fantastic new series, knowing that Bill Prady, Disney and the others ARE respectful of the characters despite what you want to think.

 

[Duke Remington]

All they need is plots A and B. Get rid of C.

I think they already got rid of plot C in episode 4. It felt like there was only the A and B stories in that one.

A sign of kinks being worked out slowly but surely.

 

[Blue Frackle]

Question. why isn't animal on a chain anymore and why isn't floyd holding onto it to keep him from going after women... then again WHY ISN'T ANIMAL GOING CRAZY OVER PRETTY WOMEN?!

Then again, why has Animal only had like one line out of four episodes?

And ironically, that was what Frank Oz had been complaining about for some time, they the Muppets were "too nice," "too sweet," and "too cute." He felt there was no longer any conflict or tension among the characters to help shape the dynamics of their interactions with each other.

But, this is something I brought up in another thread a while back: it seems like there's no middle ground with anybody anymore - the Muppets are either "too nice" or "too mean."

But then again, THE MUPPETS (2015) is trying to be a mainstream show, and there's an unwritten rule in television today that characters have to be unlikeable jerks because they're apparently "more relatable" to audiences today.

See, but there's a difference between being not too nice, as Frank's referring to, and being the heartless b*st*rds they have sometimes been depicted as in this show.

Anyway, all great points.

I think they already got rid of plot C in episode 4. It felt like there was only the A and B stories in that one.

A sign of kinks being worked out slowly but surely.

I kind of thought Janice/Sam was plot C.

 

[dwayne1115]

This conversation makes me tired....It also makes me wonder if some Muppet fans will ever be happy with the Muppets ever again.

 

[Ladywarrior]

dwayne yes muppet fans will be happy with them again if the writers can get characterization proper. It was VERY close in episode 3.

 

[Blue Frackle]

This conversation makes me tired....It also makes me wonder if some Muppet fans will ever be happy with the Muppets ever again.

I'm happy with The Muppets, though there is room for improvement.

I agree; I'm getting tired as well.