Respectful Politics Thread (Let's Just See)

Muppet Master

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If you ask me I feel like the dems secretly want Biden to kick the bucket if it means having a black woman as our president. 🤷🏿‍♂️
I don't even think it's "secretly", they were basically giddy when Biden was in the hospital because she got to be acting president for a few hours. It's also the fact that they probably know she has absolutely no chance at winning an election on her own so Biden dying would be her one shot at becoming POTUS.
 

LittleJerry92

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The fact that they were even okay with Biden being in hospital just for the sake of her being President really represents everything about that party.
 

fuzzygobo

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If you ask me I feel like the dems secretly want Biden to kick the bucket if it means having a black woman as our president. 🤷🏿‍♂️
If the Dems want a black woman president, I’m all for Tulsi Gabbard.
Kamala isn’t very much liked in her own party, just like Hillary was.
Gabbard is aware the Democrats need a major overhaul. Just appointing people to check off the intersectional boxes is not going to lower gas prices, won’t lower inflation, won’t get people back to work.

Nancy Pelosi is starting to show signs of cognitive decline too. Just like how airlines retire pilots when their senses start weakening, the same should apply to politicians.

I’m all in favor of term limits too. Two terms then back to civilian life you go. The founding fathers knew government was not supposed to be a lifelong career.
 

MuppetsRule

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If the Dems want a black woman president, I’m all for Tulsi Gabbard.
Kamala isn’t very much liked in her own party, just like Hillary was.
Gabbard is aware the Democrats need a major overhaul. Just appointing people to check off the intersectional boxes is not going to lower gas prices, won’t lower inflation, won’t get people back to work.

Nancy Pelosi is starting to show signs of cognitive decline too. Just like how airlines retire pilots when their senses start weakening, the same should apply to politicians.

I’m all in favor of term limits too. Two terms then back to civilian life you go. The founding fathers knew government was not supposed to be a lifelong career.
We already have term limits. It's called elections. Get rid of all the outside money and give a common man a chance. Although rare, there are some politicians that deserve to be in long term. But their re-election should be based on their merits and effectiveness. Not how much money they can raise.
 

fuzzygobo

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It’s easy for Maxine Waters to raise money, her husband is a millionaire banker. But yes, over the last thirty years, how better off are the citizens of LA? If you’re part of the Hollywood elite, they can afford the high taxes. If not, sucks to be you.
 

Old Thunder

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A lot to unpack here from the past few days that I managed to stumble into.

Just to clarify, I don’t fully agree with the jokes Dave was making on the trans community because some of them really come off in poor taste, but Jesus Christ this really is so accurate.

Didn't the media instantly pivot to attack Biden when he made that "you ain't black" comment? Biden is still being criticized, but on a personal level it's hard for me to take a lot of the criticisms without a big pinch of salt simply because I always have to wonder - would it really be any better if your guy was still in office? Like, maybe we can remember that on a federal level trans people are no longer being systematically stripped of our rights anymore like we were when Trump was in office. Meanwhile, Dave Chappelle's special is part of the ongoing problem of cis people not giving a f//k about trans people. Of course people are going to criticize him when he's helping to deepen the problem we currently face as a community. His words are harmful and need to be called out.

Honestly, I feel like a lot of the people criticizing Dave Chappelle didn't actually watch the Closer special in full, especially the story he tells at the very end about how his trans friend committed suicide after being bullied by people in her own community.
This is a very true observation. Dave's trans friend's suicide is a tragedy and it's incredibly bittersweet that her defending her friend was weaponized against her to the point that she ended her own life. I think it's a good example of the harm cancel culture can do. I believe it deserves a place in our society, but on a larger scale it shouldn't push into extremes. We should be critiquing people more than canceling them. Some are beyond all hope but most make genuine mistakes that deserve to be corrected, not canceled. It's easier for people to change their minds when they aren't being shouted at.

But pointing out harmful rhetoric like Dave's is important and needs to be done. And I 100% understand why a lot of trans people have jumped on him so fervently. It hurts when an incredibly smart comedian who brilliantly dissected white v. black issues through his career not only doesn't come at trans rights with the same sharp-edged approach, but actually fails on such a spectacular level that he becomes part of the actual problem. And yes, he dedicated the show to his trans friend, which leads me to believe - best case scenario - that he actually means well, he's just misguided / didn't put in enough research before doing the special. He's still to blame for the harmful s//t he spews out, but at least I can feel like he just didn't intend it to be hurtful. There's some good observations he makes in the special - how dumb the bathroom bills are, how black trans people are marginalized within the trans community at large - but it's overweighted with the fact that he completely drops the ball on trans issues in general.

Again, I think that deep down Dave is not a transphobe but just really really messed up here. However, that does NOT mean that:

The thing is these idiots just hear what they want to hear and then take it completely out of context. That’s why it led to this.
No. "The thing is" Dave Chappelle made a bunch of statements that regardless of context are incredibly hurtful, harmful, and demeaning to trans people. "I'm team TERF." ***. You literally couldn't have said anything less harmful than this. Out of context it sounds like Dave is ready to come and beat up trans people. In context you realize that Dave is just really f//king stupid. The line is part of some thoughts on JK Rowling getting cancelled "just because she said that sex is real". In agreeing that sex is real, he said he's on "team TERF".

First of all, no one denies that sex is real. What needs to continually be pointed out, however, is that gender and sex are not one and the same. Secondly, in calling himself "team TERF", Chappelle is platforming one of the most hateful, demeaning, spiteful, and vitriolic groups on the planet. Some of them go so far as to call for the deaths of trans people. Is that really the kind of people that Chappelle is trying to be associated with? I don't think so given that he had to deal with the death of a trans friend (as he details at the end of the special). So I think once again, Chappelle is being ignorant of the harm he's causing and really needs to speak to someone who can explain why that is.

If anything however Dave made a good point on cancel culture - stuff is only funny if it doesn’t apply to you, but when it does, you get offended over it.

Honestly within the next couple decades Comedy is just gonna be limited to “hur hur cis straight white men hur hur so funny!” out of extremely poor taste and with a huge forced agenda.
Dave Chappelle stands in good company. I watched his special, where he talked about his trans friend Daphne. It seems a shame, the way things are going, comedy is all but dead.
People are too uptight, too sensitive, too politically correct, you can’t joke without someone getting offended.
D//n, I guess I'm just too uptight, sensitive, politically correct, offendable without a sense of humor. Comedy is truly dead.

Or maybe Dave just wasn't funny. I recall the last special of his I watched prior to this one, Sticks & Stones, which also got criticized immensely, I laughed only once, and it was because of an off-hand comment he through out to an audience member. His prepared material just wasn't... good. Not as comedy, not much as social commentary. Same with this special. I just don't get how a lot of his material is supposed to be a joke. It sounds like he's just talking.

Stuff should not just be funny if it applies to you. But great comedy manages to bridge the gap between comedy and reality. Cis people should be able to joke about trans people, but IMO if you want it to be funny AND good, said jokes need to be laughing with rather than at. It's funny to point out certain aspects of trans people. Here's a good joke off hand:


The joke is about an aspect of being transgender. The punchline isn't "haha trans". That's the difference between telling a good trans joke and telling a bad one. There's a lot of funny s//t to joke about when it comes to trans experience that doesn't involve stigmatizing an already stigmatized community. That's where Dave goes awry. He isn't being honest, he's punching down. Which he actually mentions in the special. Nuts that he didn't get it.

Great comedians punch up. They punch back at the society that we live in, the elites that control us, the social norms that define us. Being a trans person in our culture IS the very definition of punching up in and of itself. Us being us is an act of defiance against the world that wants us to stay quiet and mold to what they want us to be.

But Chappelle is punching down here. He's punching back at a community struggling to gain the basic human rights we deserve. He's helping to weaken our footing through his harmful rhetoric. And it sucks.

Over the past sixty years, the five funniest comedians have also sometimes paid a heavy price for being honest.

George Carlin had a similar battle over “Seven Dirty Words”. But he kept exposing the bull$#|t in society.
Right, but Carlin made it a POINT to punch up. He even broke it down in an interview on Larry King in which the subject of the then-popular Andrew Dice Clay came up:


Carlin's point here is that comedians have the right to say what they want because of freedom of speech. Chappelle has the right to say everything he said in that special; that's reality. But the real question is: should he? As Carlin points out, at a certain point we all can fall into a marginalized group and the best of comedy is to help fight for those groups. And just like Dice, Dave's heart isn't actually in what he's effectively doing. He's trying to be a comedian, but he's nonetheless helping to further the divide between cis people and trans people. And it hurts.

It's all good to say that "it's just a joke", but that is a terrible response to criticism. Jokes deserve to be criticized just as any speech should. Chappelle has a right to say what he said, but if I point out that what he said is f//king awful, I suddenly am just triggered and getting offended over a joke and am an "idiot" who "took things out of context" and am part of why comedy is dead? What?

Chappelle messed up big time here. Regardless of intentions, his words are actively hurting the trans community and he needs to take the time to talk with trans people as a group and apologize for the terrible things he's said about us. I have to hide in the closet about myself because I'm not in a position to transition at the moment. I have to live among people who believe that I shouldn't be allowed to exist. I have to decide if I want to live an easy life in society or actually feel good about myself. And to see Dave Chappelle helping to dig our graves, it really, really hurts.

So no, these aren't just jokes. They are part of the problems trans people face in society. And as a trans person, I say this: Dave needs to do better, and we all should too.
 

Muppet Master

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Didn't the media instantly pivot to attack Biden when he made that "you ain't black" comment? Biden is still being criticized, but on a personal level it's hard for me to take a lot of the criticisms without a big pinch of salt simply because I always have to wonder - would it really be any better if your guy was still in office? Like, maybe we can remember that on a federal level trans people are no longer being systematically stripped of our rights anymore like we were when Trump was in office. Meanwhile, Dave Chappelle's special is part of the ongoing problem of cis people not giving a f//k about trans people. Of course people are going to criticize him when he's helping to deepen the problem we currently face as a community. His words are harmful and need to be called out.
Dave Chappelle's jokes about trans people are not more harmful than Biden and his administration murdering Afghan civilians with drone strikes and continuing to further destructive border policies. If you think they are, then I really don't know what to tell you. You have the right to criticize Chappelle, no one is above being called out of course, but the fact of the matter is that no comedian can ever cause the amount of real-world harm that some of these people in power have. And that's not even going into the decades of damage that Biden has caused with his crime bill and championing of the Iraq war. And no, criticizing Biden does not mean I support Trump, I never voted for either.

This is a very true observation. Dave's trans friend's suicide is a tragedy and it's incredibly bittersweet that her defending her friend was weaponized against her to the point that she ended her own life. I think it's a good example of the harm cancel culture can do. I believe it deserves a place in our society, but on a larger scale it shouldn't push into extremes. We should be critiquing people more than canceling them. Some are beyond all hope but most make genuine mistakes that deserve to be corrected, not canceled. It's easier for people to change their minds when they aren't being shouted at.

But pointing out harmful rhetoric like Dave's is important and needs to be done. And I 100% understand why a lot of trans people have jumped on him so fervently. It hurts when an incredibly smart comedian who brilliantly dissected white v. black issues through his career not only doesn't come at trans rights with the same sharp-edged approach, but actually fails on such a spectacular level that he becomes part of the actual problem. And yes, he dedicated the show to his trans friend, which leads me to believe - best case scenario - that he actually means well, he's just misguided / didn't put in enough research before doing the special. He's still to blame for the harmful s//t he spews out, but at least I can feel like he just didn't intend it to be hurtful. There's some good observations he makes in the special - how dumb the bathroom bills are, how black trans people are marginalized within the trans community at large - but it's overweighted with the fact that he completely drops the ball on trans issues in general.

Again, I think that deep down Dave is not a transphobe but just really really messed up here. However, that does NOT mean that:
Ultimately, The Closer was not the best Chappelle special but the reactionary reception it received is what caused it to become so publicized and become another talking point in this nonsensical culture war. I'm pretty sure half of the right-wingers on twitter praising it (namely people like Lauren Boebert and Larry Elder) didn't watch it and would be super upset if they knew Chappelle also makes fun of white people and Mike Pence in the special. But that's what I like about Chappelle's work, he makes sure to make fun of everybody. Of course, not every single joke landed and anyone is free to criticize the special if they don't approve of what he's saying. I personally enjoy his stand-up and do not agree with the argument that his comedy is leading to violence against trans people. I genuinely believe that if an anti-trans bigot sat down and watched his special in full, in particular the more serious bit about his trans friend Daphne Dorman, they'd leave having more empathy for trans people than they did before.
 

Old Thunder

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Dave Chappelle's jokes about trans people are not more harmful than Biden and his administration murdering Afghan civilians with drone strikes and continuing to further destructive border policies. If you think they are, then I really don't know what to tell you. You have the right to criticize Chappelle, no one is above being called out of course, but the fact of the matter is that no comedian can ever cause the amount of real-world harm that some of these people in power have. And that's not even going into the decades of damage that Biden has caused with his crime bill and championing of the Iraq war. And no, criticizing Biden does not mean I support Trump, I never voted for either.
I never said his jokes are worse or cause more damage than Biden’s presidential actions. In fact I agree with you that Biden is more destructive on a larger scale than Chappelle will ever be. But that has nothing to do with the issue at hand, which is that Biden has been extensively covered by the media for his racist history. I did not want Biden to be the Democratic nominee and only voted for him because I felt that Trump was far worse. So my side comment about Biden criticisms was more of a, “hey, I’ve got this personal issue when I hear right wing people complain about Biden,” but I could’ve worded it a bit better. I certainly wasn’t calling out anyone here and in the scope of things I could have left it out. But ultimately it had nothing to do with my overall points and I never said anything positive about him, I merely focused on why I feel that calling out Chappelle is justified.

I personally enjoy his stand-up and do not agree with the argument that his comedy is leading to violence against trans people. I genuinely believe that if an anti-trans bigot sat down and watched his special in full, in particular the more serious bit about his trans friend Daphne Dorman, they'd leave having more empathy for trans people than they did before.
It’s possible you’re right, but I’m worried that the things he said which are inaccurate and negative to the community could stick out more to transphobic people and people who don’t have an opinion on trans rights in general. Particularly the TERF comment. How many people who had never heard of them will look them up now and fall down a spiral of TERF rhetoric and ideology? I can’t give you concrete numbers but it worries me and I think that Dave’s special is problematic for reasons like this.
 

LittleJerry92

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The thing is Dave is an equal opportunity offender and always has been with his jokes. People are allowed to criticize him yes. I mean that’s life of an entertainer - you’re going to be criticized in many ways. My issue is it feels like people were trying too hard to use selective hearing with his special to find ways to degrade his image.

Does discrimination against trans people exist? Absolutely. I don’t condone that behavior. But personally I don’t think the trans community is an innocent marginalized group either - there have been many trans folks I’ve seen who come off completely self-entitled and toxic by letting their status determine who they are. If someone were to intentionally mock a trans person out of spite that’s one reason to get reasonably ******. But showing the same behavior if someone just uses the incorrect pronouns by mistake is another.

Do I think Dave could have learned more about the transgender community? I’d say so. Do I think he’s transphobic? I wouldn’t say he is. My personal take is how people respond to his jokes is frankly on them. No one in life makes you feel a certain way - you choose to respond that way. It’s something that I honestly took a long time to figure out on. In the end no two minds think alike and there are folks who will enjoy his humor and others that won’t.

While I’m not trans myself I can say I’d honestly have a good laugh at what he says if I were because I believe every group in society has its toxic traits to them. A good example alone is the LGBT community. I personally choose to disassociate with said community with how completely biased it can be against bisexual people thinking we aren’t really apart of that community for having an attraction (or romantic feelings for that matter) with both sexes. And having faced my fair share of discrimination for being bi, I’ve come to accept I’ll be judged for it in unfair ways and just learn to accept not everyone will understand my life preferences, and that’s where I learn they aren’t good for me.

My overall take is if I were trans and had an issue with Dave’s jokes, I’d just stop admiring him as a comedian and move on with my life. If other people choose to continually criticize him then that’s their choice. I can’t change how people personally feel on something.
 
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