When does the same puppet become a new character?

[Chinchilla]

For example, Zondra and Darci.

The puppet first used as Zondra on the Jim Henson Hour was later used for Darci on Muppets Tonight. Darci's voice was different from Zondra's, but the puppet's hair and clothing was almost unchanged.

Since then this puppet has appeared in Muppets from Space and Muppet's Wizard of Oz in non-speaking roles. Was this Zondra, or Darci, or someone else? And how does one tell?

Just curious....

 

[Melonpool]

That's a tough call. I'd say that Gonzo was not in the Great Santa Claus Switch -- even though the puppet was in the cigar box. I'd say that Gonzo didn't truly become a character until Dave Goelz put the puppet on and started operating him regularly.

That said, I'd say that Piggy was Piggy from the beginning, even though she was operated by Richard Hunt and Frank Oz in the first season of the Muppet Show... so I'd say character dependence on a particular puppeteer is relative.

Maybe she's twins?

 

[muppetperson]

I guess if it is a minor character, it doesnt matter, as they could just pick it up and give it a different name and voice/personality, so the puppet becomes a repertoire actor,like in Dinosaurs.

 

[Was Once Ernie]

That's a tough call. I'd say that Gonzo was not in the Great Santa Claus Switch -- even though the puppet was in the cigar box. I'd say that Gonzo didn't truly become a character until Dave Goelz put the puppet on and started operating him regularly.

That said, I'd say that Piggy was Piggy from the beginning, even though she was operated by Richard Hunt and Frank Oz in the first season of the Muppet Show... so I'd say character dependence on a particular puppeteer is relative.

Maybe she's twins?

Actually, the Miss Piggy puppet started as "Piggy Lee" in a lip sync bit with other pigs. I don't know what show that was on, but I distinctly remember seeing it, years before The Muppet Show. I want to say it was with one of the angrier looking boars doing Louis Prima's "Old Black Magic" (a bit that goes all the way back to Sam and Friends), but the only thing that stops me from saying that is that would have been Keely Smith, not Peggy Lee. But maybe they just took poetic license with the name for the pun.

Anyone else remember that bit? It may have been on The Tonight Show in the early 70's.

 

[Chinchilla]

Maybe she's twins?

Triplets! That puppet was also the Solid Foam drummer.

I guess if it is a minor character, it doesnt matter...

You're probably right. Another reason to be grateful this thread drew thoughtful responses!

...but the only thing that stops me from saying that is that would have been Keely Smith, not Peggy Lee. But maybe they just took poetic license with the name for the pun.

Sorry, I haven't seen that bit. I think I remember reading they chose the name Piggy Lee as a deliberate pun. I assumed she was named independently of the skits that puppet performed.

 

[Super Scooter]

Actually, the Miss Piggy puppet started as "Piggy Lee" in a lip sync bit with other pigs. I don't know what show that was on, but I distinctly remember seeing it, years before The Muppet Show. I want to say it was with one of the angrier looking boars doing Louis Prima's "Old Black Magic" (a bit that goes all the way back to Sam and Friends), but the only thing that stops me from saying that is that would have been Keely Smith, not Peggy Lee. But maybe they just took poetic license with the name for the pun.

Anyone else remember that bit? It may have been on The Tonight Show in the early 70's.

Her first (known) appearance was on Herb Alpert & the Tijuana Brass where she was performed by Jerry Nelson. Here's what Bonnie Erickson said about the name:

"My mother used to live in North Dakota where Peggy Lee sang on the local radio station before she became a famous jazz singer. When I first created Miss Piggy I called her Miss Piggy Lee -- as both a joke and an homage. Peggy Lee was a very independent woman, and Piggy certainly is the same. But as Piggy's fame began to grow, nobody wanted to upset Peggy Lee, especially because we admired her work. So, the Muppet's name was shortened to Miss Piggy."​

 

[Was Once Ernie]

Her first (known) appearance was on Herb Alpert & the Tijuana Brass where she was performed by Jerry Nelson. Here's what Bonnie Erickson said about the name:

"My mother used to live in North Dakota where Peggy Lee sang on the local radio station before she became a famous jazz singer. When I first created Miss Piggy I called her Miss Piggy Lee -- as both a joke and an homage. Peggy Lee was a very independent woman, and Piggy certainly is the same. But as Piggy's fame began to grow, nobody wanted to upset Peggy Lee, especially because we admired her work. So, the Muppet's name was shortened to Miss Piggy."​

Thanks so much for that information, Super Scooter! I must have seen that Herb Alpert show. Great to hear my memories confirmed. I'm not losing it yet!

 

[dwmckim]

It's really a case-by-case scenario, and probably one with no concrete answer - depending on how long or significant one character's tenure was compared to the other...in the Zondra/Darcy case, each fan will probably consider which one it is in MFS depending on if they were more enamored (or familiar) with JHH or MT!

In a lot of cases, it's a little easier since often a puppet will have a slight modification...so it's easier to seperate Viki from JHH from the Scary Mary character the puppet was turned into for Muppet Time (with a new black wig).

...and speaking of Piggy's debut, it always startles me how much the original Piggy puppet resembled Peggy Lee...the eyes were adusted a couple times...they were placed a little differently for Herb Albert, replaced with beady eyes for TMS Sex & Violence, then replaced with eyes more in tone with original Piggy for the two Muppet Show pilots and then repositioned again for the rest of the first season. She already looked a lot like Peggy Lee the first time, but when they refined the look for season one, it's downright scary how much she looks like if Peggy had been turned into a pig by a wicked witch. You could take any photo of Peggy Lee, draw ears and a pig snout on it and it would totally look like Miss Piggy (yes, i actually used to do that!)