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The Bible and Love and Christians

Discussion in 'Friends and Family' started by TheMonsterAteMe, Nov 25, 2010.

  1. beaker Well-Known Member

    Oh I love the Occupy Wallstreet folks. I'm like it's about time the left grew a pair!
  2. frogboy4 Inactive Member

    Herman Cain is a noted bigot who asks us to prove a negative. He has already admitted that his religious views on this matter and others would sway public policy. Before he does that, could he prove to me the 100% science that God exists? See, it works both ways. I just don't see why we all can't get along without having to qualify ourselves to others. Herman Cain has about as much right to tinker in my life as I do in his.
  3. beaker Well-Known Member

    Yeah as much as I criticize Obama, he definitely seems to not budge on support gay rights, whereas before he became President his positions were coy at best. It is very troubling to think of potential candidates that would seek or allow an undoing of all that.
    frogboy4 likes this.
  4. Drtooth Well-Known Member

    That's basically the point I'm trying to make. How come it's taken so long for the Log Cabin Republicans to say, "Hey, we vote for you people to, we realize that you won't accept us, but must you shove it in our faces the way you do?"

    This is yet another time I have to bring up cartoons to make a point. Anyone ever see the American Dad episode "Lincoln Lover?" The sharpest line in that episode goes something like "All the hate we have for gays would be better used hating Democrats." Wedge issues are something politicians create when there's signs of trouble. And it furthers nothing but getting votes. It makes people paint any Republican as a batcrap crazy misspelled sign holding nut. Something Republicans really don't like any more than Democrats hate being lumped in with Hippies or Pornographers.

    The sad thing is, even the left has to kittyfoot around gay issues for fear they'll lose votes. It's become political suicide to support gays for the left too.

    All I want is thus. Either do something about their rights or don't. Don't have a campaign that's all about restricting the rights of others. Either you're for their rights or against them... and if your against them, go to another issue you're good at or have a point with.

    I can't say I care much for the Republican approach to most of the big issues (not a fan of how Dems deal with them either), but they're good with fiscal conservatism (except under Bush). Why they can't stick to that and feel they have to scare votes or play the Jesus card to win just shows what the party has become.
    frogboy4 likes this.
  5. heralde Well-Known Member

    Again I'm going to have to play devil's advocate, hehe. If the Democrats weren't so haughty about religion, they wouldn't be turning people off and enticing them to go to the Republicans.
  6. Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Here's the thing. Religious types USED to vote for Democrats. It's true. It took the Vietnam War, the creation of the Moral Majority, and the rise of Jerry Fallwell to change that.
  7. heralde Well-Known Member

    Right, definitely, a lot has changed. Of course the one thing that really needs to change is the impression that either party thinks about the American people outside of voting time. ;)
  8. Drtooth Well-Known Member

    I don't know where to put this, but we're talking about it here anyway so I figured, hey...

    You know what bugs me? Why is it that the right's speaking out against the Occupy Wall Street stuff when, let's face it, they're not happy with the fact the Dems bailed out the banks either... but the Dems are being slightly supportive in a manner to try to get votes saying "Oh, shucks... we'd LOVE to help you, even though we could have done something about this on party lines 2 years ago when we actually had power."

    You'd think the fact that a group of stereotypical "lefties" abandoning Mr. Left president would get THIS response from the right...



    Now, I've noticed the right makes points when they say Obama's controlled by Wall Street and how Clinton deregulated things and signed legislation that gave our jobs giftwrapped to China... but they do NOTHING against that because their party doners benefit from that too. Really! After the bailout when the banks were taking that money and giving it to their greedy dimwits as huge bonuses and golden parachutes, they all pointed the fingers... but they tried to block legislation that would have taxed everyone involved to get that money back. They managed to sting Obama when the BP disaster happened, yet when the president told that company that THEY had to pay for the clean up, someone stated "That's shaking down a legitimate business." I get the right wants to paint the Dems as the corrupt Wall Street owned party to disenfranchise people to vote for them or a third party to split the vote... but HOW COME no one's saying they're on the take too?

    Fixed or not, regardless who won 2008, the banks were getting that money no matter what. They're both crooks, sure... but the Dems are like the Beagle Boys (they get caught) and the Reps are like Lupin III (they don't and get away with it).

    Now on to the protesters... I WANNA agree and like you, but...

    Peter, Paul and Mary Music? Drum circles? Do you KNOW what happened in the 60's? All we're going to get out of this is people listening to a pro-big business party, taking them seriously, and marginalizing people who actually see injustice that we ALL can agree on. Hippies did NOT stop the war in Vietnam... they just wound up being annoying and getting Nixon elected. And Nixon kept Vietnam going until the Watergate scandal caused him to pull out so he can get his approval rating up. Sure, I'm probably the only one who sees the message... the banks held this country hostage until they got money and NO ONE got punished for it, and they're refusing to lend money all the while big business refuses to create jobs even though they have record profits in a supposed double dip recession (the market was valued at over 12,000 points earlier this year... the best we've seen in a while and unemployment didn't budge). Why can't you guys drop the hippy attitude and just SAY that loudly without drums? The dang Neo-Cons are laughing at you with their "We're funny because we're smarter than everyone else" ability to point out that you buy stuff made by corporations (hee hee! Gawd that was clever! Did you think about that all your own, or did your stock brokers your parents hired for you give you that one?)... the Investards (that reward companies for "cutting the fat" while not cutting out the CEO's pay one nickle) are drinking champagne and laughing at how dirty you are in an eerily similar to Pre-Revolution France Mary Antoinette way.

    I want to see true change too... but it's not going to happen because you're not a pro-government, Fox News Sponsored, disingenuous movement that once meant something, but became so cartoonishly anti- the president only.
  9. heralde Well-Known Member

    Well, I do know what you mean, but I disagree that the Hippies did nothing. The war didn't end right away, but the protestors helped change society over all by not backing down from their position. They helped make it acceptable to question the government. And in the end, Nixon and his Watergate scandal helped validate the protesters' position. Bottom line, you have to keep talking, even if the result you want isn't immediately forthcoming, you HAVE to keep making your presence known.

    I was very disappointed that the Iraq war protests weren't nearly as vocal and I really think it was because there was no draft this time. People didn't have the fear that they had during Vietnam. I think the government knew exactly what it was doing by not having a draft this time; they knew the majority of Americans would just go on with their lives.
  10. beaker Well-Known Member

    Again, I want to support and be supportive of this "Occupy Wallstreet" thing. But it mostly seems like privileged yuppy kids with a very incoherent scatterbrained message. I'd almost say it feels like a 4chan anon meme gone flash mob viral than a real substantive grassroots movement. I posted on another forum that us overweight peopleshould start an "Occupy Mcdonalds" and blame them for our obesity. (Again, Im someone who was in anti war rallies all throughout the Bush era)

    A lot of these Occupy WS kids are Obama supporters. I still can't figure out why the anti Bush left loves him. Obama has been sending missiles to American born youtube vloggers he doesn't agree with. He's authorized the forcing of google and other providers to give up info and emails in their new aggressive targeting of wikileaks supporters. He's gone hardcore after whistleblowers. And he's in a lot of ways not just escalated the wars we were in but started several new ones. The right wing should love him
  11. beaker Well-Known Member

    I remember them vocal, but again people were under the spell of the 9/11 fear machine. Freedom fries, and all that. I was just disappointed there was no Afghanistan war protests, and currently no anti war protests even tho Obama has put the war machine into hyperdrive.
  12. heralde Well-Known Member

    The only time I ever heard about the freedom fries was as a punch line. I don't know how many people really took that seriously.

    I personally wouldn't have protested the Afghanistan war because the Taliban were the real culprits (as opposed to Iraq) and needed to be stopped, not to mention the continuing violation of women's rights in Afghanistan.

    The Iraq war was a corruption of US leadership and I do think Bush should have been impeached for it.
  13. Drtooth Well-Known Member

    Not as much as you think.

    The problem is, no matter how "left" someone is, they're all right to me... just some are more right than others.

    I don't get the "Obama hates Israel" crap when it was revealed that he secretly sent them a whole lot of bunker buster missiles. I don't get the whole "YEEAAARRGGH! He's going to destroy capitalism and he's a socialist" when, let's face it, capitalism (or what we call capitalism) has never been stronger. The only reason the right hates him is that he isn't far right enough. And Glen Beck's Koo Koo conspiracy theories. The left actually HAS a viable complaint about him.

    That said, the right manages to point fingers, but they're not really for regulations and punishing anyone because they get even more money under the table.

    But then I came to a realization... some have to stick with him because they know a third party can't be put together and elected in 2012, and let's face it... no matter how bad this guy is, the right's become frightening. Mitt Romney has been supporting a "stronger military." That's code for, "once I get in, XXXX the American people! I'm going into Iran's sexy pants and getting the media to have a fright campaign against anyone who disagrees with me." I desperately wish that Ron paul would win the party nomination. He's the ONLY politician I trust not to keep us in the Middle East. I can look past his "everyone for themselves" libertarian views. Kill Minimum wage? Fine! Just no Iran. But that's not gonna happen. They can claim Tea Party and Libertarian all they want... that's for repealing Health Care. They want another Reagan in there to XXXX the American people and drop bombs on random places. The Right wants another international XXXX swinging contest. Keeping us in Iraq, Afghanistan and that stuff with Libya is small potatoes compared with what the Neo-Cons wanna do.

    As for Wikileaks... here's the thing. That was valuable information. But they screwed up, showed too much, got everyone vilified, and it destroyed a pure cause. The government shouldn't have shut them up... they should have USED that info. Some of it was info we needed. Guanotanimo can't be closed because none of the other countries wants to take them. THAT was info we needed. When the banks went after them and they posted all the dirt on the banks and credit card companies, however? THAT was the biggest dirt the entire world needed. If they used their knowledge for good, we could have taken down the evil banking industry worldwide that has us prisoner. If they didn't screw up and worked with the freaking US Government, they coulda... I dunno... done something mutally beneficial. But then again, if Obama sided with him, the right would just poop all over that and call him a traitor terrorist or something.

    I used to believe that was a just war up until they decided to jump ship and go to Iraq. Had they stayed there and worked on it and did it the right way, we could have left within a year... 2 tops. But it was much more important to go after someone his Daddy put into power. XXXX swinging. That's all it was. not for war, not for justice... XXXX swinging. He wanted to go in since the debates and NO ONE listened.
  14. Bannanasketch Active Member

    I've heard news from OWS. It's turned into just a gathering filled with unsanitary conditions, sex, and drugs. It's like woodstock. I mean, they don't even know what their purpose is? What do they hope to get out of this? Okay, let's all just get angry at the "big, evil corporations" so let's all quit our jobs and go live in our own crap on Wall Street. It's getting out of control and it needs to stop.
  15. heralde Well-Known Member

    They can't find jobs, that's the point. They graduated college (which their parents paid very, very large amounts for for four years) only to find the economy is in the dumps and there are no jobs. And Wall Street bears a share of the blame for this. That's why they're protesting.

    And what's wrong with Woodstock? ;)
  16. Bannanasketch Active Member

    Many of the interviews and stories I've heard was of people that actually quit their job because they though this was sooo important to attend or some are just too lazy to find a job. I understand that they're anger but what do they hope to get out of this? All, I'm seeing is a dump full of sex, violence, and drugs. Not really a productive way to make their point.
  17. heralde Well-Known Member

    I think that's a bit of a bias perspective. There are other sides to the story, such as I what I mentioned earlier.

    To say that people are being lazy when there's clearly a recession going on and unemployment is at an all time high just doesn't add up.

    The Tea Party got picked on for the conduct of its most outrageous members. The same thing is happening here. That's all.
    frogboy4 likes this.
  18. frogboy4 Inactive Member

    Well, protests and causes are usually known by their leadership. Many of the most vocal members of the Tea Party have spearheaded a lot of hate-filled initiatives, but I'm sure there are many people who support the root issues without any of the homophobic, xenophobic or racist sentiments from some of the most visible members. Either way, I still don't support the Tea Party.

    Those on Wall Street do have a point, but they also have their crazies. Ultimately this nation is part of a global marketplace and we're also losing the relevance we once had. I'm not sure how much of that can be remedied, but there must be a meeting of both corporate and worker interest. Neither side will ever be happy. I don't follow either tribe. It's just important that we all see the clash that is happening. We don't have to pick one side. We only have to be aware of the many rather complex issues and act thoughtfully when some choices hit us later on.

    As I type this, their some gathering outside of protesters ranting "homes not jails" and making all sorts of noise. I work over 60 hours a week in order to survive these days and deserve not to be harassed at 8pm. America isn't always kind to its homeless, but things in SF are far easier for them than anywhere else in the nation! I've lived across the street from a shelter for nearly 15 years and to be honest I pray for the day it gets shut down. There is no rehabilitation or positive upward movement that I've seen. They just invite crime and noise and feces into the neighborhood. I can understand the frustrations of folk who work hard and pay taxes for folk to indulge their addictions and destructive behavior. Maybe some sort of jail is where many of these people belong. I don't know. But nothing happening now is really helping.
  19. heralde Well-Known Member

    The homeless issue is very sad. Some homeless are addicts and they've done it to themselves, but it's still sad. Others are mentally ill and can't do much to help themselves. And others are victims of financial circumstances. And you're right, the shelters aren't always good places, there is very little that's being done to help these people.
  20. beaker Well-Known Member

    I agree, the corporate/wallstreet junta is out of control:)

    But yeah, OWS(like the Tea Party, or any sort of riot/protest/revolution out there)
    is probably heavily infiltrated and coopted by provocatuers...if not wholly manipulated by the powers that be from the getgo

    Ugh, why do I have to live so far from New York? That sounds like a blast!

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