The Bible and Love and Christians

GonzoLeaper

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It would be nice is we not only "agreed to disagree" but permitted others to thrive under their different beliefs. "Peoples is peoples." I use a Muppet film quote because the Muppets wouldn't be who and what they are without the diversity of their performers, writers, directors and crew - all of whom deserve equal rights like everybody else.
Haha- nice! Thumbs up for "The Muppets Take Manhattan" quote. That's one of my favorite lines from Pete.:smile:
Well said, man. I do believe in love over hate as well. I also believe in speaking the truth in love, as I said. People can either agree or disagree with it. If they choose to disagree with what The Bible says, that's their choice. I'm not going to force anything on them and neither is God. At some point, both sides have to realize there are some things we just aren't going to agree on and move on. It's the same with other issues too. I don't like abortion for that matter, but I'm not going to go out and blow up abortion clinics. That's plain stupid and wrong- because murder is wrong, whether you're killing kids or adults.
People are free to make their choice on what they want to do on that issue as well. I may not like or agree with it but it's ultimately their choice on how to proceed.
 

Bannanasketch

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Gonzoleaper, I wholeheartedly agree with you on everything that you said. I dont think there is eally anything else I could say.

Redpiggy, I disagree with you on some points. You see, before Jesus came the leaders cam up with a lot of crazy laws. That was known as the old covenant. When Jesus came, the new covenant was set in place and a lot of those crazy laws were taken away. I hope this helps you understand.

Frogboy4, I agree and disagree with you on some points. Also, please don't just point out how right wingers are the anti-semitites and all that. Discrimination takes place on both sides not just the right. There are extremes on both sides of the political level.

I enjoy continuing this discussion. We all have different beliefs but we are all here as human beings that can have some friendly discussion.:smile:
 

GonzoLeaper

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How so? The logic of the 'phobes is that it is called an "abomination". Murder? Not really. Now, one has to wonder how seriously to take the use of the word when wearing polyester/cotton blends also are abominations. Or eating shrimp. Yes, we all sin, but clearly the bible has preferences.
'phobes? Homophobes, I take it? I don't really like that term being used all the time because there is a distinction to be made. Phobia indicates an irrational fear and that's not always the case. Yes, there certainly are some who may have this, but that doesn't mean that Christians who stand on what The Bible says have any such fear. It's just stating what The Bible says regarding sexual morality.
The wearing of polyester and cotton blends is not a sin. This requires a rather lengthy explanation to go into, but making that comparison is taking The Bible out of context. God said to the Israelites not to do this under The Law. In reading the New Testament, Christians will see that we are not under The Law anymore, but rather under grace. However, Jesus said that He didn't come to do away with The Law but to fulfill it. He's the Only One who ever fulfilled it perfectly because He's God.
And He said that not one jot or tittle (i.e. one dot of an "i" or stroke of a "t") would be moved until all was fulfilled.
So we can't ignore the Law but we are not bound to it in the same way the Israelites were. We read in a number of places in the New Testament that homosexuality is a sin- Romans 1, for instance, among others I could quote.
The Law was intended to show us how much we don't keep it and show humanity its need for Christ. Jesus invites us to come to Him and take up His burden because it's light. (Matthew 11:28) He says the Law can be summed up by loving God with all you've got and loving your neighbor as yourself. He also said if you love Him, you'll keep His commandments. God's commandments within the New Covenant include abstaining from homosexuality as it is a sin.

I can agree to a certain extent, but the idea that cutting someone off in traffic is as bad as, say, genocide is just downright silly. There are valid reasons some issues are considered more severe than others. The problem is when people start just labeling things as severe (like homosexuality or wearing two types of cloth) when they just really aren't. It makes the person who made up the rule look ridiculous and delusional. The WHOLE reason such things were called abominations was to keep Hebrews from going over to the "fun" temples, where you could do more than listen to some bitter priest tell you God hates you. The priests who wrote the rules were ramping up the punishments (that they were probably the ones who would mete out) so that they could keep a forced loyalty. And it was really a moot point anyway because the bible and archaeology agree the "Joe Q Public" never really listened to the priests/prophets as much as they thought the public should.
The problem here is making the comparison based on our human law. Of course the consequences are different for speeding versus murder. However, speeding is just as much breaking the law as murder is. Neither one is a good thing to do. And God does not measure us against our human ideas of right and wrong and our manmade laws. He measures us against Himself- and that's perfection. That's why Romans 3:23 says that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory.
And yet we're all born sinners. Everyone has a right to their beliefs, but some beliefs ought to be thought out more. Others came up with Original Sin. It's not inherent in the text that's referenced for it. Instead, the A&E story sounds more like a harsh coming-of-age story, where some naive kids heard an eye-opener of a story and God got irritated. The original point seems to be that we mess up, miss the mark, whatever as a result of biological desire (note that Eve first mentions how delicious the fruit looks, not any of the other reasons) and naivety/ignorance. Had Genesis gone down like the NT authors claimed it did, there was really no reason at all for God to keep A&E around. He could just as easily have vaporized them and started over. Instead, He doesn't kill them, lets them live to just shy of a 1000 years, and continue to spread their genes all over the place. Some punishment. However, this makes total sense if you realize God gives them this slap on the wrist because He realizes they screwed up, not willfully flipping God off. It's the same thing with Cain. He lets his emotions get the best of him and doesn't seem to grasp just what he really did. God thus protects him from harm and lets him found a city. Christianity loves to latch onto God's fury, but with a more objective reading of the text, a lot of people get away with, well, murder. God forgives a lot more than He actually punishes.
The concept of original sin is certainly espoused throughout The Bible. Romans 5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 5&version=NIV) explains this pretty well. Sin and death entered the world through one man (Adam) and it was also conquered through the grace offered us by One Man (Jesus Christ).
I don't think it's fair to say that Christians latch on to God's fury like there's some kind of sadistic glee to it. It's more like I look at God's fury and shudder- and want to warn people about it because of that. But God is extremely gracious and certainly is long-suffering with forgiveness (1 Peter 3:8-9) and is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. God does plenty of forgiving but He also must certainly punishes sin. (see Exodus 34:6-7, Galatians 6:7, Hebrews 9:27-28, and there are many other passages) He also makes this clear in the Old Testament too- He takes absolutely no pleasure in seeing the wicked perish- He only wants them to turn from their wicked ways and live. (Ezekiel 18:23)
The hardest part of determining what Jesus wanted is you really have two of them: Hippie Jesus and Rambo Jesus. I'm willing to accept the idea He's probably a mixture of both, but it's trying to fish out His true personality that's the issue.
Hippie Jesus and Rambo Jesus? Interesting comparison- probably true to some degree. Jesus does tell us to love one another and love our enemies- but He also makes it pretty clear that God will judge sin. (John 5 and John 8 both are good examples. And certainly Matthew 24.) The Gospels all give us a good picture of who Jesus is and His character, as does the rest of The Bible. We can determine what Jesus wanted by reading His commands- His command is that we love God we all we have and love one another as ourselves. And that if we truly love Him, we'll obey His commandments. And because as Christians we are bound under the New Covenant in His blood, we hold to the commands of the New Testament out of gratitude to Christ and love for Him for His salvation. The Old Testament is still a valid part of The Bible as well, but we are not bound under The Law anymore, but rather Christ's grace. This site helps explain it pretty well. (http://www.thebible-tencommandments.com/under-grace-not-law.html)
The Ten Commandments are God's original Laws handed down to Moses. And this is what we still uphold in the New Testament rather than the ceremonial laws that were tacked on later. (i.e. Not eating shellfish- the example so many people seem to love to quote. However, if you read in Acts 10, you see from Peter's vision that all animals are clean for eating, so obviously God is not holding Peter and New Testament Christians to that ceremonial law anymore. Although there are instances where some of the Old Testament ceremonial laws are quoted in the New Testament and given a still valid interpretation- like Leviticus 19:19 which says not to wear clothing woven of two materials. Paul explains that we can take from this principle that Christians should not be unequally yoked with unbelievers in relationships- dating or marriage.) One of the Ten Commandments says not to commit adultery. God defines adultery as any aberration from His intended plan for human sexuality- one man and one woman in holy matrimony for life. This is why we hold to God's standard for not committing adultery as part of keeping the commands of God that Jesus told us to keep. And any time one of the Old Testament laws is repeated in the New Testament, (and homosexuality's status as a sin is certainly repeated in the New Testament)- then this is part of the New Covenant that Christians are in with Jesus and we must hold to that as His command. I love how 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 puts it- "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
God is not wanting to punish anyone- but He will if people insist on choosing their own sinful ways over His. He has to do this because He is good and just and He keeps His promises. But He loves us so much that He sent Jesus to die for us and rise again to pay the penalty of all the sins ever committed in the world so that we wouldn't have to face punishment and eternity in ****, but rather enjoy salvation and eternity in Heaven.
That's the Gospel in a nutshell.
If anyone's interested, I can suggest some further reading that delves into this even more. Obviously, The Bible would be the first and foremost place to look. C.S. Lewis also has some great books that help explain some of these things in The Bible pretty well- I would highly recommend "Mere Christianity" and "The Great Divorce" in particular. And "The Chronicles of Narnia". And pretty much everything else he wrote.:smile:
Hope that helped clarify some things. I don't know all the answers- I just know the One who does and I try to reveal what He's revealed to me in reading His Word.
 

CensoredAlso

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I don't like abortion for that matter, but I'm not going to go out and blow up abortion clinics. That's plain stupid and wrong- because murder is wrong, whether you're killing kids or adults.
Agreed, as a pro life person I say violence is not going to convince people of anything. Both sides of controversial issues like these need to work on listening and mature debating (and not assuming it's only the other side that needs to do these things, heh).

When Jesus came, the new covenant was set in place
I agree this is something that isn't always understood. Jesus said he came to right certain misconceptions people had about morality. For instance how he said an eye for an eye was incorrect.
 

GonzoLeaper

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Nice post, Bananasketch. You've succinctly captured the essence of what I was trying to say whereas I obviously tend to ramble. LOL:big_grin:
 

RedPiggy

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Redpiggy, I disagree with you on some points. You see, before Jesus came the leaders cam up with a lot of crazy laws. That was known as the old covenant. When Jesus came, the new covenant was set in place and a lot of those crazy laws were taken away. I hope this helps you understand
You see, when I want the scoop on the context of what Jesus was talking about, I actually converse with Jews. At the time the gospels, etc were written, Christianity was breaking away from Judaism (also partly because pagans were coming in and Hellenizing the movement). This colors what happens in the stories A LOT. Historical Pharisees just simply weren't the villains the NT makes them out to be. I don't mind thinking that Jesus griped about hypocritical religious leaders, but the historical facts differ from what my religion claimed. Jesus never intended to invent Christianity. You can thank Paul for that (or at least nearly all of it). Jesus was merely trying to reform Judaism and claimed He "fulfilled" it. He claims over and over that He is fulfilling it, not destroying it. He uses the "OT" to justify a lot of His actions and messages. I understand what traditional Christianity teaches about Jesus, but upon further investigation, one realizes that some details and assumptions are based on a later tiff between Judaism and a Jesus-centered sect of Judaism that then gets all ticky and decides to break off all connections ... until the "OT" is needed to justify a dogma, in which case suddenly Christianity and Judaism are best of buds. Take the finger wagging about homosexuality. Jews understand all the griping in the bible is actually about certain temple practices. They understand Hebrews were trying to distance themselves from the neighbors a lot of Hebrews felt were more "fun". Nearly all the commandments (all 613 of them) are directly related to some other country's issues. There's not a thing wrong with that, actually. Even now, countries keep others' practices in mind as they write up rules.

Christianity isn't immune. We go from Jesus' "Hey, just chill and be excellent towards each other" to "don't eat anything but fish on Fridays, kneel/sit/stand during prayer, vote this way, don't drink alcohol on Sundays (yet somehow drink it during being one with Christ at communion -- figure that one out), don't play certain games, etc." Ritual is for human psychological comfort. Jesus continued the prophetic tradition of calling ritual such, though He also submits to ritual Himself. If He denied the old ways, why did He get baptized? Why did He celebrate Passover? Why make pilgrimages to Jerusalem? Why study the Torah? A lot of what Christianity teaches us was necessary to "prove" Jesus' Messiahship supposedly comes ... from ... the ... OT ... that ... magically ... ceases ... to matter ... when ... the ... rules ... get ... inconvenient. It's hypocritical to blast Judaism for being draconian when Christianity became the exact thing Jesus preached against.

Now, that being said, I'm a modern woman in the United States. I'm going to act and think a certain way because of that. Even if I agreed 100% with what Jesus taught, there's no way I can pretend to be some Middle Eastern woman from 2000 years ago. I don't feel God wants us to pretend (some better than others) that life stopped 2000 years ago, freezing us all, everywhere on the globe, to a particular neighborhood millennia ago. The bible evolved. So do we. We must all search for the truth and what it means for ourselves. While I'm fine with those Christians who like the traditional ways of doing things (even if they're of denominations with a history less than a thousand years old, like, say a hundred or two), I've learned too much for it to mean much to me.

It took a long time when planning some of my fics to write someone like Pa Gorg. I think I succeeded in learning to respect conservatism in certain respects. Tradition is an anchor that can reign in ideological tangents, and that's okay. Tradition is good for people who need a bit of structure in their lives. I don't really need that much. Conservative and Progressive Christianity, interestingly enough, can both use the bible to justify their positions all day long. While a lot of those outside the Abrahamic traditions claim it's a fault of the bible, I see the conflicts and the contradictions and such as a larger theme that is rarely spelled out in bumper-sticker-ready trite verses, that reality is just hardcore complicated. It's a truth I see in personal experience, in science, in history, in religion, etc. My goals in my spiritual life includes trying to find that sweet spot between seeing the forest while getting enough details about the individual trees and not getting lost in them. I feel it's the best I can do being a human being and not some cosmic entity like Phoenix or something. :smile:

Although if God's offering upgrades, I'm ready to sign up, LOL. :wink:
 

CensoredAlso

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Now, that being said, I'm a modern woman in the United States. I'm going to act and think a certain way because of that. Even if I agreed 100% with what Jesus taught, there's no way I can pretend to be some Middle Eastern woman from 2000 years ago. I don't feel God wants us to pretend (some better than others) that life stopped 2000 years ago, freezing us all, everywhere on the globe, to a particular neighborhood millennia ago. The bible evolved. So do we. We must all search for the truth and what it means for ourselves. While I'm fine with those Christians who like the traditional ways of doing things (even if they're of denominations with a history less than a thousand years old, like, say a hundred or two), I've learned too much for it to mean much to me.
I think it's definitely true that our understanding of the Bible has evolved and should continue to do so. It's ironic to me that Jesus was always contradicting the hypocritical leaders he saw, and yet today we see many leaders of Christianity behaving the exact same way. Of course this is is no way limited to Christianity. I think religion in general often just attracts authoritarian personalities.
 

frogboy4

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Frogboy4, I agree and disagree with you on some points. Also, please don't just point out how right wingers are the anti-semitites and all that. Discrimination takes place on both sides not just the right. There are extremes on both sides of the political level.
You're right. What I said was a fair example on the topic of discussion. But there are examples of prejudice on both sides of the isle. One of the most notable is Joe Biden's back-handed compliment about Obama being clean and well-spoken for an African American.

It's true that much of the political religious right has the reputation of being a "fair-weathered friend" to America's Jews when it suits their agenda, but not everyone is that way. I just think it's important for the people who claim that we are a religious Judeo-Christian nation to actually invest in both parts of that statement or not make it at all. Those who fall into that category are not necessarily anti-Semitic, but they are hypocritical.

Personally, I'm against any group that wants to remove the civil rights from people with whom they disagree. Again, "Peoples is peoples."
 

Bannanasketch

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You see, when I want the scoop on the context of what Jesus was talking about, I actually converse with Jews. At the time the gospels, etc were written, Christianity was breaking away from Judaism (also partly because pagans were coming in and Hellenizing the movement). This colors what happens in the stories A LOT. Historical Pharisees just simply weren't the villains the NT makes them out to be. I don't mind thinking that Jesus griped about hypocritical religious leaders, but the historical facts differ from what my religion claimed. Jesus never intended to invent Christianity. You can thank Paul for that (or at least nearly all of it). Jesus was merely trying to reform Judaism and claimed He "fulfilled" it. He claims over and over that He is fulfilling it, not destroying it. He uses the "OT" to justify a lot of His actions and messages. I understand what traditional Christianity teaches about Jesus, but upon further investigation, one realizes that some details and assumptions are based on a later tiff between Judaism and a Jesus-centered sect of Judaism that then gets all ticky and decides to break off all connections ... until the "OT" is needed to justify a dogma, in which case suddenly Christianity and Judaism are best of buds. Take the finger wagging about homosexuality. Jews understand all the griping in the bible is actually about certain temple practices. They understand Hebrews were trying to distance themselves from the neighbors a lot of Hebrews felt were more "fun". Nearly all the commandments (all 613 of them) are directly related to some other country's issues. There's not a thing wrong with that, actually. Even now, countries keep others' practices in mind as they write up rules.
Wow, that's a lot to read. I understand what you're trying to say here. Christianity was made branching off from Judiasm. Many jews disagreed with Jesus in the fact that he is the son of God. Jewish belief today is that the messiah is still yet to come even though Jesus fufilled all the prophecies in the OT. He brought a new covenant and new law into the world and many rejected him for it and they hung him on a cross. Jesus could have never reformed Judaism becuase there would still be people who went against his practicings.

Christianity isn't immune. We go from Jesus' "Hey, just chill and be excellent towards each other" to "don't eat anything but fish on Fridays, kneel/sit/stand during prayer, vote this way, don't drink alcohol on Sundays (yet somehow drink it during being one with Christ at communion -- figure that one out), don't play certain games, etc." Ritual is for human psychological comfort. Jesus continued the prophetic tradition of calling ritual such, though He also submits to ritual Himself. If He denied the old ways, why did He get baptized? Why did He celebrate Passover? Why make pilgrimages to Jerusalem? Why study the Torah? A lot of what Christianity teaches us was necessary to "prove" Jesus' Messiahship supposedly comes ... from ... the ... OT ... that ... magically ... ceases ... to matter ... when ... the ... rules ... get ... inconvenient. It's hypocritical to blast Judaism for being draconian when Christianity became the exact thing Jesus preached against.
Okay, most of the rituals you said are of catholic belief. I myself am a nondenominational Christian and don't believe in useless rituals and traditions that the catholic church does (such as confessions, for example. I don't believe that a person should tell their sins to the priest to accept forgiveness). Also, I disagree with people blasting judaism. Without Judaism, we would'nt have Christianity. Jesus himself was a jew. And the Old Testament does matter. It provides many stories and philosophies that are used in Modern Christianity. It paves the way for Jesus' arrival. All I'm saying is that many of the laws set up in the OT were erased once Jesus came and died and set up the New Law. It's not blasting Judiasm at all.

I hope this helps you understand a little better.
 

CensoredAlso

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Okay, most of the rituals you said are of catholic belief. I myself am a nondenominational Christian and don't believe in useless rituals and traditions that the catholic church does (such as confessions, for example. I don't believe that a person should tell their sins to the priest to accept forgiveness).
As a Catholic, just want to say that yes there is a lot of emphasis on ritual that I myself disagree with at times. But it should also be pointed out that Catholicism has the concept of Tradition (capital "T") which says our understanding of God's word should evolve over time and not solely rely on the Bible. That's why we don't have, say, polygamy. We have made the leap as a culture that that practice was wrong, even though revered Biblical figures took part in it.
 
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